ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[testarossa50]

The TSPLOST failing is a setback indeed. But seriously, let's not overreact. We actually have one of the best transit systems in the sunbelt.

I mean, where are they going to go instead? Nashville? Houston? Tampa? Those cities won't have transit like we do for decades if ever.

The main blow, as I see it, is a PR blow. We can go on and on about why this didn't pass, but let's take a moment to look at the plan's flaws. It ignored basically ALL of southern Gwinnett County. The Fayette, Douglas, and Rockdale lists were jokes. A huge chunk of the transit funding was pretty sketchy and weak. A mystery bus/rail line to Cumberland. A mystery bus/rail line down I-20. The Clifton Corridor project, which cost vast amounts despite low ridership projections, and wiggled awkwardly into Avondale Station--not a horrible project, but excellent fodder for conservatives to attack, and addresses a very small geographic area.

The TSPLOST was better than nothing. But it was pretty mediocre no matter how you cut it.

Looking at alternatives that we can actually push for, the Sierra Club/Tea Party shockingly have some good ideas in their counterproposal.

http://clatl.com/freshloaf/archives/2012...-party-agree-on-plan-b-if-t-splost-fails

Whether they actually believe in this stuff or were just bluffing to shoot the vote down, I'm not sure. But we need to start a new campaign to advocate for new solutions--solutions which DON'T have as their centerpiece a silly cop out that puts the entire matter on the backs of fickle voters. We need to make clear we haven't voted to do nothing; we've just voted not to do this particular TSPLOST.

The hotel/motel tax is so outrageous and hot button right now it's a good opportunity to argue the money ought to be leveraged towards transit instead. Conservatives don't seem to care that much either. But it's simply not enough money to make a big difference--a few tens of millions a year.

[Snakebit]

Confirmed: Plan B is Gov. Nathan Deal deciding where all transportation funds go. By law he cannot spend the gas tax on transit, thus, there will be no new transit funding.

http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-j...ansportation-vacuum/?cp=1#comment-238525

[L41A]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

The TSPLOST failing is a setback indeed. But seriously, let's not overreact. We actually have one of the best transit systems in the sunbelt.

I mean, where are they going to go instead? Nashville? Houston? Tampa? Those cities won't have transit like we do for decades if ever.

The main blow, as I see it, is a PR blow. We can go on and on about why this didn't pass, but let's take a moment to look at the plan's flaws. It ignored basically ALL of southern Gwinnett County. The Fayette, Douglas, and Rockdale lists were jokes. A huge chunk of the transit funding was pretty sketchy and weak. A mystery bus/rail line to Cumberland. A mystery bus/rail line down I-20. The Clifton Corridor project, which cost vast amounts despite low ridership projections, and wiggled awkwardly into Avondale Station--not a horrible project, but excellent fodder for conservatives to attack, and addresses a very small geographic area.

The TSPLOST was better than nothing. But it was pretty mediocre no matter how you cut it.

Looking at alternatives that we can actually push for, the Sierra Club/Tea Party shockingly have some good ideas in their counterproposal.

http://clatl.com/freshloaf/archives/2012...-party-agree-on-plan-b-if-t-splost-fails

Whether they actually believe in this stuff or were just bluffing to shoot the vote down, I'm not sure. But we need to start a new campaign to advocate for new solutions--solutions which DON'T have as their centerpiece a silly cop out that puts the entire matter on the backs of fickle voters. We need to make clear we haven't voted to do nothing; we've just voted not to do this particular TSPLOST.

The hotel/motel tax is so outrageous and hot button right now it's a good opportunity to argue the money ought to be leveraged towards transit instead. Conservatives don't seem to care that much either. But it's simply not enough money to make a big difference--a few tens of millions a year.

I agree with your post. I was for the TSPLOST passage as well. But it did have flaws. That's why I stated I understood the positions of the DeKalb NAACP for example. A rail line into South DeKalb would have been quite popular I predict. I just hoped their opposition wasn't a case of "cutting off the nose to the face" - which would be the case if no alternative solutions are sought and implemented.

[ChadK]

Well, I guess it's time to move back north.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

if you think the huge upswing atlanta and most of the sunbelt metros experienced for decades is going to continue at that same rate, you're wrong.

There are existing forces driving rural emigration and urban immigration all across America. Over the last 15 years the effect of these forces was most obvious in the emerging Sunbelt cities such as Atlanta. If you thing this monotonic increasing demographic forces are going to suddenly abate over $7B you are wrong.

[rds989]

On TSPLOST....Ouch! Not even close in any of the regions across the state. Sad to say, apart from the fact that nobody loves a tax increase, I think it would have been much more popular if it had focused even more on roads as opposed to public transport.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake

The website is making the rounds on the Southside and in the Urban Core as a stealth attack - just under the radar.
:-)

Cheers to Southside, Urban Core, Occupy Atlanta, Nebulous Entity for saving Georgia from taking a wrong turn.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by Snakebit

Confirmed: Plan B is Gov. Nathan Deal deciding where all transportation funds go. By law he cannot spend the gas tax on transit, thus, there will be no new transit funding.

Yes. Plan B is the status quo, except now the governor and GDOT will have political cover. A real shame.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

There are existing forces driving rural emigration and urban immigration all across America. Over the last 15 years the effect of these forces was most obvious in the emerging Sunbelt cities such as Atlanta. If you thing this monotonic increasing demographic forces are going to suddenly abate over $7B you are wrong.

..bouncing around in that argument. not sure folks were saying that trend would abate. what they were saying is that, among a few other things, transportation issues will hinder it here. Which maybe is for the best as it has some capacity issues. Seems like if anything what might happen is a steady stream of retirement age folks who would most certainly vote down (hypothetical) sales tax refs as they did in this case. As a bit of field research, you should talk to a couple of IT recruiters and ask why they have difficulty finding "A" talent here...

Enjoy your new roads...

[Tuckerman]

This is a predictable but unfortunate outcome, particularly for transit. Investment in roads and highways will be the main outcome. Invest now in concrete. The state government and the governor will not invest in any transit. There is little sense of the commons at this time and the Tea party perspective is at the height of influence. The elected officials in the dominant Republican party will pick and choose their road projects.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

Cheers to Southside, Urban Core, Occupy Atlanta, Nebulous Entity for saving Georgia from taking a wrong turn.

Yeah, I think your plan is going to work like a charm now that a right-wing governor has a tailor-made excuse to only build roads.

This is going to be AWESOME for the environment and for employment in the region.

Cheers.

[Tuckerman]

[QUOTE=ATLaffinity;5784501]Yeah, I think your plan is going to work like a charm now that a right-wing governor has a tailor-made excuse to only build roads.

This is going to be AWESOME for the environment and for employment in the region.



I think you are spot-on. As a confessed old liberal, I am amazed at the political naivety of these newly emerging groups on the so-called left. They are in bed with the Tea party and don't even know it.

[(four 0 four)]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Yeah, I think your plan is going to work like a charm now that a right-wing governor has a tailor-made excuse to only build roads.

Don't expect to see much change in this picture...

From returntoatl blog

The 'no' voters I spoke with seemed to have been more interested in staring at the inside of their intestines than trying to understand what TSPLOST was all about. Their ill-informed comments would have been comical if they weren't so pathetic. This should have been a big win for the metro region but instead all we'll end up with is more highways.

[BlindFatSnake]

For all of you who vowed to pack up and leave if the TSPLOST failed, there's a boat-load of U-haul trucks waiting curbside ready for your journey...

Seriously, if Nathan Deal decides to build roads, where will he get the money? If he converts interstates surrounding the city into toll roads, he'd be fired by the people. His best bet is to take down that damn toll on GA400 in December of 2013.

His road-building plan will surface during his re-election campaign. Let's see how that goes over with the people.

Immediate problem for this Republican-controlled state: How to explain the increase in matching funds for road projects (from the usual 10% to the 30%) due to the failure to pass the TSPLOST. Republicans are screaming EXTORTION. LMAO

What a bunch of backwoods idoits who loaded the TSPLOST with anti-Atlanta laws that have come back to bite them in the a$$.

You reap what you sow.

[ChadK]

Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake

For all of you who vowed to pack up and leave if the TSPLOST failed, there's a boat-load of U-haul trucks waiting curbside ready for your journey......

You reap what you sow.

Hahaha. Yes, it's hysterical that the citizens of Georgia voted to choke the city to a slow death. Let's all laugh about it. Nice.

I am investigating a transfer. I love this city for what it could be, but it's never going to get there fast enough for me.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

I think you are spot-on. As a confessed old liberal, I am amazed at the political naivety of these newly emerging groups on the so-called left. They are in bed with the Tea party and don't even know it.

It is a shame. I can appreciate someone's informed, contrary opinion. But when I hear folks the next day making remarks such as now they'd like to see a vote for a tax to only fund the Beltline, it shows a fundamental lack of understandings of some legal basics in their state and municipal governments, not to mention social landscape.

[RudyJK]

Originally Posted by (four 0 four)

Don't expect to see much change in this picture...

From returntoatl blog

The 'no' voters I spoke with seemed to have been more interested in staring at the inside of their intestines than trying to understand what TSPLOST was all about. Their ill-informed comments would have been comical if they weren't so pathetic. This should have been a big win for the metro region but instead all we'll end up with is more highways.

Let's see:

London - Population 8,278,000 - Area 1,623 Sq Km - Density 5,100 per Sq Km
Paris - Population 9,645,000 - Area 2,723 Sq Km - Density 3,550 per Sq Km
New York - Population 17,800,000 - Area 8,683 Sq Km - Density 2,050 per Sq Km
Atlanta - Population 3,500,000 - Area 5,083 Sq Km - Density 700 per Sq Km

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

One look at the population densities tells you why your 4 maps look the way they do. After all, what came first? The density - or the transit?

I'm not saying that Marta should never expand it's rail lines, just that to do so now is not particularly cost effective. Better bus service is what the system needs now - between outer communities and not all Atlanta focussed.

TSplost went down for a lot of reasons; a couple of my main reasons for disliking it so much were the lack of real vision in the project list; so many projects were simple maintenance issues. In my view, you don't create a new tax for maintenance issues.

And double taxing Fulton and Dekalb counties - a non-starter for me. I've been paying for Marta through sales taxes for 25+ years now; and I never use it. It takes way too long to get anywhere, mainly due to the lack of bus service. And I live Intown.

[BlindFatSnake]

Originally Posted by ChadK

Hahaha. Yes, it's hysterical that the citizens of Georgia voted to choke the city to a slow death. Let's all laugh about it. Nice.

I am investigating a transfer. I love this city for what it could be, but it's never going to get there fast enough for me.

No. The citizens voted to send this BS back to the drawing board. Now, if Nathan Deal and his cronies don't get the message, they'll all suffer at the polls.

People want a mix of rails and roads. People want a plan that can be implemented in phrases - not a hodge-podge network of me,me,me f'ing roads and disjointed transit systems.

This dumba$$ metro already has 7 different bus systems. Where on earth does that happen except a racially-divided Atlanta?

[BlindFatSnake]

It would make sense for the politicans and the Chamber of Commerce to hold focus groups and ask the citizens (individually) why they voted resoundingly to reject this list of projects.

But, I'm sure, they'll listen only to their own internal thoughts and come up with something simple like: the Tea Party caused the defeat because they're anti-tax. When the real reason is the list sucked.

Try explaining the TSPLOST to a person who resides in a large city and see how many times you accidentally bite your tongue, or worst, find yourself talking to a blank stare.

[cabasse]

that's not going to happen while deal's in office. http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-j...ends-to-step-into-transportation-vacuum/

The Plan B that staggered out of the governor’s office will be its polar opposite: Dramatically smaller, paid for with shrinking funds, and highly centralized. Projects will be hand-picked by a governor who intends to squeeze every penny available. And no matter what others might say today, don’t look for a sequel to the TSPLOST referendum. A second vote has no place in the governor’s Plan B.
Instead, Chris Riley, the governor’s chief of staff, said traffic planners in regions across the state will be quickly asked to resubmit lists of road and rail proposals that require state and federal funding – figuring in an 8 percent decrease in federal funding. The governor has veto power over each list.
Riley said that Deal intends to use that authority to direct cash to absolutely essential projects in metro Atlanta and elsewhere. “The state’s top transportation priority is the Ga. 400 and I-285 interchange,” Riley said. But metro Atlanta residents could also find themselves enduring pot holes and worse for the sake of better roads around the Port of Savannah, he added.

We'll just raise gax taxes, right?

But, however liberated he may feel, Deal has few options. The most direct route – asking a Republican-led Legislature for a tax increase, whether on gasoline or anything else, is off the table.

More transit, right Sierra Club?

Some opponents of the TSPLOST, including Senate Majority Leader Chip Rogers of Woodstock, have said they’ll push for a second TSPLOST referendum with a more road-friendly list.