LRT Stage 3

[Spoonsy]

Originally Posted by huntclub

As someone who grew up in Kanata taking 3-4 buses just to get Downtown, it would be a big mistake to not at least extend it to eaglesson. The park and rides are always packed and so are the buses.

yup. i've had this discussion with friends who moved back to Bridlewood/Emerald Meadows/Blackstone to raise their own families; they will never have an appetite for OC if they have to take more than 1 bus, tops, to get to the train

i was lucky enough that when I lived there I could walk to the Tim Wendy's on Hazeldean and grab the old 96A out of Stittsville to Downtown in one shot... the dream


can we get a stage 2.1 that takes it to eagleson at least?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Spoonsy

yup. i've had this discussion with friends who moved back to Bridlewood/Emerald Meadows/Blackstone to raise their own families; they will never have an appetite for OC if they have to take more than 1 bus, tops, to get to the train

i was lucky enough that when I lived there I could walk to the Tim Wendy's on Hazeldean and grab the old 96A out of Stittsville to Downtown in one shot... the dream


can we get a stage 2.1 that takes it to eagleson at least?

The City broke it down as the possibility of Stage 3 to Terry Fox and Fallowfield OR Barrhaven Town Centre and Hazeldean. I don't think they are mentally capable of going outside that box they set-up for themselves. The Knoxdale townhomes is an example of that, where they planned to deviate the rail line around the townhomes to save them, but won't go back to the initial plan of expropriating even though renoviction is already in process.

[lrt's friend]

When we were planning rail around 2009-2012, we were bogged down by 1980s plans to have the Transitways converted to rail. We should have had more critical thinking about expanding rapid transit instead of replacing rapid transit. This would have given us new riders automatically. Instead we created a situation where failures of new technology ticked off our existing rider base big time. I spoke about that repeatedly in those years, that we needed to invest in a new route, that yes, included a downtown tunnel.

Although losses were inevitable because of Covid, our core commuter transit market remembered how the 2019 opening failed with overcrowded and unreliable trains and inconvenient outbound bus transfers. Our suburban riders previously had nice one seat (usually seated) rides to downtown replaced by overcrowded trains where most commuters were standing. They did not want to come back to this mess which was re-enforced by many further failures during the lockdown. I believe that this has contributed to the WFH situation with the public service. Who wanted to go back downtown when transit was a mess? OC Transpo and the city still does not have the answer to attract riders back.

We also made bad decisions requiring almost everybody to transfer to the train. Why did we do this? Obviously to pack as many bodies into the trains. Most cities would not have done this. The Confed Line Phase 1 does not serve the west and south end effectively so why would express and trunk routes not have continued into downtown at least until Phase 2 was open? This is what most cities would have done. There was little consideration of what was best for the customer and what would have delivered them with the best service. Our focus was to get rid of as many buses out of downtown all at once, instead of getting rid of some buses best served by Phase 1 (the east end).

I have always questioned how the Transitway link between Hurdman and downtown was closed off. We should have had the train follow a slightly different course to reach Hurdman preserving the Transitway. We recently had a suggested route that would have reduced some of the Hurdman curves as well. This was all about value engineering (cost saving), not about creating an optimal transit network. So when the trains shut down, we have an inefficient mess for buses coming from the east.

Regarding the Trillium Line, what city in its right mind would have closed a well used rail service for 3.5 years? And then, not bring it up to optimal and long-term standards at the same time (double tracking).

Phase 3 may be dead, as there is sadly no justification to build it anymore because of loss of ridership and the likelihood of not recovering it. If Stage 3 is ever built, it needs to reach the community hubs which are Kanata Centrum and Barrhaven Town Centre. In both cases, this would allow the bus network to focus on those most important local locations rather than a Park n Ride that offers virtually no other purpose than to 'transfer'. We need to think of the overall transit plan that encourages people to use transit and not necessarily just to commute.

[OTSkyline]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Make sense!

Rather than extend LRT to Kanata, once phase 2 opens, why not have most suburban bus routes in Kanata go to, and end at Moodie. Would benefit most Kanata residents by only having to take 1 bus to the LRT, and could be fairly easy & cheap to implement (if there is no funding to bring LRT into Kanata).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Rather than extend LRT to Kanata, once phase 2 opens, why not have most suburban bus routes in Kanata go to, and end at Moodie. Would benefit most Kanata residents by only having to take 1 bus to the LRT, and could be fairly easy & cheap to implement (if there is no funding to bring LRT into Kanata).

I think that's the idea, to have Kanata commuter buses end at Moodie or Bayshore. It's more for the thousands (maybe dozens now) commuters who park-and-ride that it inconveniences.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think that's the idea, to have Kanata commuter buses end at Moodie or Bayshore. It's more for the thousands (maybe dozens now) commuters who park-and-ride that it inconveniences.

This is where the imbalance exists. There will Park n Rides in the east and south but not in the west that are directly connected to rail. Moodie is far from a natural terminus. It is in the middle of the Greenbelt.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think that's the idea, to have Kanata commuter buses end at Moodie or Bayshore. It's more for the thousands (maybe dozens now) commuters who park-and-ride that it inconveniences.

Also, the busses heading north don't go south from the Queensway exit to the Eagleson Park and Ride, so most connections for travel within Kanata/Stittsville would need to be done at Moodie. Having a common, terminal station within Kanata would greatly improve connections.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is where the imbalance exists. There will Park n Rides in the east and south but not in the west that are directly connected to rail. Moodie is far from a natural terminus. It is in the middle of the Greenbelt.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Also, the busses heading north don't go south from the Queensway exit to the Eagleson Park and Ride, so most connections for travel within Kanata/Stittsville would need to be done at Moodie. Having a common, terminal station within Kanata would greatly improve connections.

Agreed. I sincerely hope Eagleson and Fallowfield at the bare minimum start after Stage 2 opens.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

When we were planning rail around 2009-2012, we were bogged down by 1980s plans to have the Transitways converted to rail. We should have had more critical thinking about expanding rapid transit instead of replacing rapid transit. This would have given us new riders automatically. Instead we created a situation where failures of new technology ticked off our existing rider base big time. I spoke about that repeatedly in those years, that we needed to invest in a new route, that yes, included a downtown tunnel.

Although losses were inevitable because of Covid, our core commuter transit market remembered how the 2019 opening failed with overcrowded and unreliable trains and inconvenient outbound bus transfers. Our suburban riders previously had nice one seat (usually seated) rides to downtown replaced by overcrowded trains where most commuters were standing. They did not want to come back to this mess which was re-enforced by many further failures during the lockdown. I believe that this has contributed to the WFH situation with the public service. Who wanted to go back downtown when transit was a mess? OC Transpo and the city still does not have the answer to attract riders back.

We also made bad decisions requiring almost everybody to transfer to the train. Why did we do this? Obviously to pack as many bodies into the trains. Most cities would not have done this. The Confed Line Phase 1 does not serve the west and south end effectively so why would express and trunk routes not have continued into downtown at least until Phase 2 was open? This is what most cities would have done. There was little consideration of what was best for the customer and what would have delivered them with the best service. Our focus was to get rid of as many buses out of downtown all at once, instead of getting rid of some buses best served by Phase 1 (the east end).

I have always questioned how the Transitway link between Hurdman and downtown was closed off. We should have had the train follow a slightly different course to reach Hurdman preserving the Transitway. We recently had a suggested route that would have reduced some of the Hurdman curves as well. This was all about value engineering (cost saving), not about creating an optimal transit network. So when the trains shut down, we have an inefficient mess for buses coming from the east.

Regarding the Trillium Line, what city in its right mind would have closed a well used rail service for 3.5 years? And then, not bring it up to optimal and long-term standards at the same time (double tracking).

Phase 3 may be dead, as there is sadly no justification to build it anymore because of loss of ridership and the likelihood of not recovering it. If Stage 3 is ever built, it needs to reach the community hubs which are Kanata Centrum and Barrhaven Town Centre. In both cases, this would allow the bus network to focus on those most important local locations rather than a Park n Ride that offers virtually no other purpose than to 'transfer'. We need to think of the overall transit plan that encourages people to use transit and not necessarily just to commute.

You make an excellent point. Converting the east-west Transitway to LRT didn't really do much in terms of opening up new transit "frontiers". It mostly just shored up existing corridors that already had pretty good transit uptake - by North American standards anyway.

They could have broken new ground by going east along Rideau-Montreal and south on Bank.

Ottawa would still have decent rapid transit service to places like Orleans and Westboro (and a whole bunch of others) under this scenario, as the Transitway would still be there.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You make an excellent point. Converting the east-west Transitway to LRT didn't really do much in terms of opening up new transit "frontiers". It mostly just shored up existing corridors that already had pretty good transit uptake - by North American standards anyway.

They could have broken new ground by going east along Rideau-Montreal and south on Bank.

Ottawa would still have decent rapid transit service to places like Orleans and Westboro (and a whole bunch of others) under this scenario, as the Transitway would still be there.

What is amazing is how the entire Chiarelli plan (it was more than the old NS route) was trashed and how the mayor's task force was ignored. None of those ideas will ever see the light of day in my lifetime and no matter how successful Ottawa's Transitways were, we will not be building another km likely ever again, just like we will never build another ultra low cost rail line. Our transit memory of pre 2006 has been wiped out by toxic politics

[Richard Eade]

The design and implementation of public transit is complex; and I’m sure that everyone has their own opinions about what the ‘best’ solutions are. Usually, those opinions are based on what people imagine would work best for them and are not based on a full understanding of all of the issues and compromises that are required.

Decisions have been made in the past that were thought to be the best. For example, the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton (RMOC) decided that buses with dedicated transit corridors were preferable to rail lines. There were some very valid ‘pros’ that influenced that decision – not the least of which was the ability for buses to use the dedicated busway for moving quickly from one area to another, but also for those buses to leave the busway and circulate within neighbourhoods, in mixed traffic. This flexibility allowed ‘local’ buses to be interlined with others, converting them to ‘express’ buses to the city’s core. This made transit quite popular.

Alas, this proved to be too successful, with the number of buses being added into the stream overloading the capacity of the central portion of the busway. But that was because the central portion had not actually been built as designed. Instead, the buses had simply been given intermittent dedicated lanes along mixed traffic roadways. The buses were still subject to interactions with signal lights, turning vehicles, and pedestrians. In reality, their dedicated lanes did more to keep stopped buses from interfering with general traffic than speeding up the buses.

I maintain that providing the originally planned cut & cover bus tunnel under Slater would have been the best solution for the bus backups that were occurring. The Transitway could have been maintained, and the majority of the money currently being spent on converting it to a rail line should have been used to provide other transit options – like a rail-based subway under Bank or Rideau. Any future conversion of the Transitway to rail, if needed, could have been done AFTER there were other high-capacity transit routes that could have been leveraged to help divert passengers from the Transitway.

However, decisions were made, and billions of dollars are being spent to convert the Transitway to rail – a process which has inconvenienced the majority of transit riders. And, unlike a busway, the full length of a rail line needs to be completed for it to be used as planned. (Unlike buses that can divert to mixed roads to detour around a missing segment of busway.)

This brings me to the Stage 3 sections of the rail line – which is why this comment is in this thread.

Already, the conversion to rail forces a transfer from one vehicle to another. This was not necessary when a ‘local’ bus could switch into ‘express’ mode to downtown. But does it matter where that transfer happens? If someone from Barrhaven can catch a bus near their home, and be taken to the end of the train line does it matter is they sit on the bus for 10 minutes and then on the train for 25, or on the bus for 15 minutes and then transfer to the train for 20 more minutes? If the transfer is convenient, it probably doesn’t matter. But that scenario relies on frequent, convenient ‘local’ transit that goes to the rail termini.

If, on the other hand, a person takes their own car to avoid poor (or non-existent) ‘local’ bus service, and drives to the train terminal, there will need to be parking. It is my belief that it is less costly for OC Transpo to provide a vast surface parking lots beside train stations than it is for them to provide frequent (usable) ‘local’ bus service to the majority of homes in a low-density suburb.

Therefore, I would suggest that there needs to be a Stage 3, but it does not need to extend further into the suburbs than to major park & rides. (Which is why the eastern tracks had to go all the way to Trim.) In the case of Barrhaven, this would be to Marketplace, and for Kanata, to Centrum. There are no park & rides currently near the western branch of the O-Train – Line 3, and Moodie was not designed to be a major transfer hub. Thus, the extension to Kanata is essential.

Since Algonquin could have additional Park & Ride area added, and the station has been designed for easy bus-train transfers, it would be possible, I think, to delay the south extension to Barrhaven. (At least until the city can figure out a way to economically get a track from Baseline to Hunt Club. Those properties should have been expropriated when the plan was first approved!) That would make it a Stage 4. During that Stage 4 construction, customers could be bused to the end of Line 2, to reduce the transit load through the construction zone – since Woodroffe will be a mess.

Extending the trains across the Greenbelt also has environmental benefits, as it reduces the distance that diesel buses must travel. That said, OC Transpo is not predicting a significant drop in operating cost between having buses or trains cross the Greenbelt. (This does make sense, since driving relatively frequent 300-person, very sparsely-filled trains across the Greenbelt, verses running relatively infrequent 50-passenger half-full buses is likely to be close in cost. Remember, the frequency of trains there is influenced by the peak need anywhere along the line.)

[J.OT13]

I mostly agree with Richard except for Algonquin being a possible site for a larger park-and-ride. The station is already heavily used by college students and City staff, it is an ideal spot for well integrated TOD.

Park and ride facilities today are also charged, presumably to avoid college students from using that lot.

Furthermore, if someone from Barrhaven is driving to Algonquin, might as well continue to Downtown.

Algonquin is not a good spot for a park and ride, Even the current one should not exist.

[Uhuniau]

We have spent the past 15 years talking* about intensifying land use around Algonquin and beautiful downtown New Nepean, by building on the existing parking lots. Adding parking, even if of the "and ride" variety, runs counter to that goal.

* Not much more than talking about, yet, but talking about.

[Richard Eade]

While I completely agree that the area around the Algonquin Station should be developed, I think that, if the train is not extended to Barrhaven – i.e., NO funding for Stage 3 for a while – then there should be a larger TEMPORARY park & ride between the station, Ben Franklin Place, and Tallwood. (Maybe also use the existing city parking and ask employees to use transit?)

I’ll explain my thinking:
In the days of olde, a transit customer from Barrhaven had three choices:

• Take one of the peak-period ‘express’ buses (at a premium cost, originally) from near their house directly to downtown;
• Take an infrequent ‘local’ bus from near their house to either Nepean Woods, Marketplace, or Fallowfield and transfer to a ‘Transitway’ bus that took them downtown; or
• Drive their car to either Nepean Woods, Strandherd, or Fallowfield park & ride and take a ‘Transitway’ bus to downtown.

There was high uptake for all three options.

With a mandatory transfer being added at Algonquin (assuming no southward train extension), the third option makes even less sense for people. It will become; drive to a park & ride to board a bus for a quick trip to transfer to the train. If the option existed to drive to a park & ride at the beginning of the train trip, I think that it would be better received. I do not agree with J.OT13 that most would just keep driving to downtown. I think that there is still a long drive from Algonquin to downtown.

Putting a large park & ride at Algonquin makes it easier for people. Adding another transfer does not. Any additional dis-incentive to taking transit, in my opinion, is a bad idea.

The College-parking problem: Yes, it will exist. But, remember that every one of those college students is forced to buy a U-Pass, so they actually have, in the eyes of OC Transpo, paid for access to a park & ride. If they lived in Barrhaven, for example, they could just as properly park at Fallowfield and take a bus north to Algonquin. Because they have been forced to buy a pass, they are PAYING customers of OC Transpo. If the lot is full when others arrive, then, just like at any other park & ride lot (Greenboro or Eagleson, for examples) they will learn to arrive earlier to get a spot.

Adding a large park & ride at Algonquin MUST be TEMPORARY. As soon as practical, the train should be extended to Barrhaven and the parking redeveloped.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

What about a different extension into Kanata using other rights of way in the area?

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Spoonsy

yup. i've had this discussion with friends who moved back to Bridlewood/Emerald Meadows/Blackstone to raise their own families; they will never have an appetite for OC if they have to take more than 1 bus, tops, to get to the train

i was lucky enough that when I lived there I could walk to the Tim Wendy's on Hazeldean and grab the old 96A out of Stittsville to Downtown in one shot... the dream


can we get a stage 2.1 that takes it to eagleson at least?

Did you live in GC or Katimavik? I grew up in GC and remember the old 97 that you had to catch at the Town Centre to get downtown. I had moved away by the time the 96 had such a convenient route through K-Town.

[OTownandDown]

LOL, careful, you might make sense!! Wouldn't want to do that!

(btw the right-of-way also exists from your 'node' at Bayshore to central Stittsville, with just a couple of old 'oopsies' where a subdivision was placed a bit close to the line.

OH, and it also extends to Kinburn and Smiths falls/perth, if you're so inclined.

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

What about a different extension into Kanata using other rights of way in the area?

[Richard Eade]

Hmmm. Such a route to Kanata-North was one of the options that was studied. It scored almost as highly as the run along the 417, I believe. However, the more central route was chosen because it had more potential to be extended west and south to Stittsville. (And, there is already some infrastructure ready for a transit corridor along the north of the 417.)

Maybe it is time to re-visit that decision. IF downtown Ottawa is going to become a lower priority for commuters, due to the Federal Government’s Work from Home (WfH) policies, I wonder if other areas (particularly the high-tech area of Kanata-North) will become a more important destination for commuters. That is, there might be fewer people leaving Kanata in general to commute to downtown, but roughly the same number of commuters going to Kanata-North. (Assuming that most tech workers have been recalled from WfH.)

With the legal ruling that “in perpetuity” in a contract is actually limited in duration, the golf course can be redeveloped. There will need to be a new roadway for the new homes, so why not make that also a North-South transit corridor. By taking the O-Train – Line 3 north to Kanata-North, and putting in a separate North-South transit route between Kanata-North and Stittsville, commuters can be better served, PLUS, there would be better transit within the Kanata-Stittsville region.

The northern routing of the LRT does miss the existing park & rides, though.

[lrt's friend]

The former City of Kanata did us no favours by establishing a major business park that was completely separate from the retail centre of Kanata. This shows us the absolute stupidity of segregated land use zoning that was so prevalent in past decades. Is it still today? How do we really adequately serve both locations by rapid transit? We can't without building two lines.

And if the Kanata high tech park continues to be a potential major destination, how do we make it accessible from other parts of the city at a decent speed, that allows for not close to 100% car dependence? This brings us back to the discussion of the original O-Train Version 2 using the greatly underused rail line that goes right there. The current Confed Line route is going to have so many stops to cross the city and assumes nobody lives south of the Queensway.

I spoke to councillor Desroches yesterday and he commented that there are now 40,000 people in Riverside South and soon 20,000 in Findlay Creek on top of the 80,000 ++ in Barrhaven. We seem to forget just how many people actually live south of the Queensway and those numbers don't include the inner suburbs.

[Acajack]

Going to Kanata North is an interesting think-outside-the-box option though note that it would be almost exclusively a Monday to Friday 7 am to 6 pm (or so) commuter line.

It would be dead on evenings and weekends.

To me it's more something that a city like London (UK) or Paris would do now that their rapid transit system is very extensive and almost maxed out.

Not something that a city like Ottawa which still has a gazillion gaps in areas where the service would be more used seven days a week, at all hours of the day.