Canadian University Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And, isn't Truro more like four hours from Sydney???
).

The part of the drive on the island isn't great either.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have a lunch date so have to run but the simulations I've seen in the media show McGill still cheaper than U of T for most programs. I'll have to check later.

U of T is very expensive for foreign students. McGill and other Quebec universities will be the most expensive in Canada for those from the other 9 provinces. It will be more than double and a substantive difference to the point of a rapid decline in enrolment from Ontario especially. That's kind of the point though isn't it. And fair enough out of province students aren't a big economic benefit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Or, their actual goal, keeping Anglophones (or anyone who's not a white, Catholic Francophone) out of the Province.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I can't help but think that the nationalists will gladly sacrifice McGill (easily a top 3 in Canadian universities, along with UofT and UBC) on the alter of enhancing the prominence of French in Quebec, no matter what the cost. Maybe out of Province Canadians seeking to study in Quebec could first emigrate to France, Tunisia, etc. to get access to the cheaper tuition offered to students from these foreign countries.

There are enough Anglo Quebecers and Americans to keep McGill at top 10 school. Post referendum it faded from the top 5 in many eyes and like Montreal has clawed it's way back so this is unfortunate. It is still well funded on research and grad school which is all the province cares about anyway. In 20 years there will be 10s of thousand less former McGill students living in the city with a bit of French and a federalist outlook. Honestly this is a good thing if French is your priority. Us Anglos don't understand because language is just a tool for us but for the French it is central to identity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I would love to see actual stats on this though. I know a lot of people from outside Ottawa who studied here and stuck around. Even if just 1/10 stay in Quebec, it's a net gain. They have to figure out what's more important, growing the labour market or saving on domestic ROC tuition? Or, their actual goal, keeping Anglophones (or anyone who's not a white, Catholic Francophone) out of the Province.

.

I don't think you have the same dynamic with McGill in Montreal as you do with students remaining in Ottawa after their studies. The francophone universities in Montreal probably have much higher retention rates.

I remember seeing the numbers for the province's four med schools, and Montréal, Laval and Sherbrooke all had over 90% of graduates working in the province, whereas McGill had a majority of grads (60%?) leaving the province almost immediately after pocketing their diploma.

Now, it may indeed be 1 non-Quebec student in 10 at McGill who stays in Quebec and makes their life here, but even so why would it be illegitimate for the Quebec government to want to boost the number of graduates we hold onto overall?

It's our investment after all.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think you have the same dynamic with McGill in Montreal as you do with students remaining in Ottawa after their studies. The francophone universities in Montreal probably have much higher retention rates.

I remember seeing the numbers for the province's four med schools, and Montréal, Laval and Sherbrooke all had over 90% of graduates working in the province, whereas McGill had a majority of grads (60%?) leaving the province almost immediately after pocketing their diploma.

Now, it may indeed be 1 non-Quebec student in 10 at McGill who stays in Quebec and makes their life here, but even so why would it be illegitimate for the Quebec government to want to boost the number of graduates we hold onto overall?

It's our investment after all.

I think your point is correct though using medical school date is apples and oranges. People who are not residents of Quebec mostly can't even attend McGill which is a graduate program. There are only a few spots for non residents in each medical school. The French schools take students out of CEGEP and of course they are much more limited in mobility as French speakers. But I think the problem for the CAQ is more and more are staying. Joining the Anglo minority which is increasing after many years of decline in parts of Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

LOL, the little french are at it again. So desperate to be liked by a country that wrote them off long ago:

John Ivison
@IvisonJ
4h
From next fall, French (from France) students at Quebec universities will pay half the tuition fees that students from other provinces in Canada. Digest that for a moment.

https://twitter.com/IvisonJ/status/1714249852819759152

There's actually nothing new about this set-up. Quebec has had an agreement with France and a few other places (Belgium) for decades at least. Our students pay local fees over there and their students pay our local resident fees here. If you're a Quebecer studying in France this means your university session could be virtually free. Since it is free for the French as well.

I think our resident forumer Le Calmar may have done one of these exchanges during his studies.

The result is that French students have been paying less than Ontario students in Quebec for quite a while now. Maybe decades.

Even francophone students from outside Quebec in Canada pay more than students from France or Belgium. Though I think there are exceptions for some programs, like the medicine program at the Université de Moncton which is affiliated with the Université de Sherbrooke and has lots of students from the Maritimes.

[MonctonRad]

FWIW, I am not a big fan of fee differentials between in-province and out-of-province students in our country. Canada is far too Balkanized now, and it is only getting worse. I think we would be better off encouraging students to study in other parts of the country (if they can afford it), just to help create pan national connections and friendships.

It's more than just fee differentials too. In medical schools, the vast majority of the seats are "purchased" by the province and distributed to residents of that province. When I went to Dalhousie Medical School, there were 96 seats for entering students each year. PEI purchased four of them. NB purchased 20 seats per year, and the vast majority of the rest were reserved for NS students. In my year, we only had about 4-5 students from elsewhere in Canada, and about 3-4 international students (one was from Bermuda and, I think that seat was purchased too). PEI and NB students also had the option to go to Memorial University too, and both provinces also purchased seats over there too. I was also accepted to go to Memorial for med school.

As for the rest of the country, you could apply to Western, U of T or any other medical school if you wanted, but, as a Maritimer, your chances of getting in were virtually nil because the seats were almost all reserved for in-province students. I greatly disliked how Balkanized and parochial the system was.

And, it is now getting worse. Dalhousie now has a satellite medical campus at UNBSJ in Saint John. NB students no longer have the option to go to medical school in Halifax (or Memorial). UPEI is getting a satellite campus of Memorial University Medical School (currently under construction). Once the new medical school is operational in Charlottetown, island students will no longer be welcome in Halifax or St. John's. If you are from PEI and you want to go to med school, your only option will be to attend the satellite campus at UPEI, where many of the classes will be taught virtually from St. John's, and the students will have only limited exposure to the breadth of interesting clinical cases you would normally be able to learn from in a larger teaching hospital.

Also, the new med school at UPEI is designed to have a specific focus on family practice and rural medicine. Where would this have left me if I was an island resident now? When I entered medical school in 1979, I went to Halifax, and got to experience a large teaching hospital with all the resources, and a breadth of clinical instructors spanning all specialties, and I was able to develop an interest in a particular specialty I was interested in. It doesn't sound like I would have been able to do that if I had been forced to attend the UPEI medical school. The expectation would have been that I was specifically training for rural family medicine. This is not fair.

Parochialization and Balkanization is bad. We should be aiming for a nationwide and universally accessible higher education system with minimal interprovincial barriers. Unfortunately, things are getting much worse, and certainly not better. If I had wanted to go to McGill Medical School, then why shouldn't I? Political meddling should not be allowed.......

[someone123]

We have a big shortage of healthcare workers and doctors in Canada too so restrictions like this hurt more. There doesn't seem to be much to keep people from moving to the US after. It's not necessarily bad to train doctors who move away but it's terrible if there are a bunch of restrictions in place with very small enrolments. In some ways it is a zombie system based around the idea of artificial scarcity in generating and protecting elites (designed for a small portion of the population in centuries past) rather than education for education's sake with credentials being determined by competence.

It's kind of like housing in that this problem area has existed for decades and is pretty obvious if you know any details about it, yet it doesn't appear to have improved much. At root Canada is ossified in a bunch of ways with special interests often driving the bus and incompatible policies are often adopted.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

FWIW, I am not a big fan of fee differentials between in-province and out-of-province students in our country. Canada is far too Balkanized now, and it is only getting worse. I think we would be better off encouraging students to study in other parts of the country (if they can afford it), just to help create pan national connections and friendships.

It's more than just fee differentials too. In medical schools, the vast majority of the seats are "purchased" by the province and distributed to residents of that province. When I went to Dalhousie Medical School, there were 96 seats for entering students each year. PEI purchased four of them. NB purchased 20 seats per year, and the vast majority of the rest were reserved for NS students. In my year, we only had about 4-5 students from elsewhere in Canada, and about 3-4 international students (one was from Bermuda and, I think that seat was purchased too). PEI and NB students also had the option to go to Memorial University too, and both provinces also purchased seats over there too. I was also accepted to go to Memorial for med school.

As for the rest of the country, you could apply to Western, U of T or any other medical school if you wanted, but, as a Maritimer, your chances of getting in were virtually nil because the seats were almost all reserved for in-province students. I greatly disliked how Balkanized and parochial the system was.

And, it is now getting worse. Dalhousie now has a satellite medical campus at UNBSJ in Saint John. NB students no longer have the option to go to medical school in Halifax (or Memorial). UPEI is getting a satellite campus of Memorial University Medical School (currently under construction). Once the new medical school is operational in Charlottetown, island students will no longer be welcome in Halifax or St. John's. If you are from PEI and you want to go to med school, your only option will be to attend the satellite campus at UPEI, where many of the classes will be taught virtually from St. John's, and the students will have only limited exposure to the breadth of interesting clinical cases you would normally be able to learn from in a larger teaching hospital.

Also, the new med school at UPEI is designed to have a specific focus on family practice and rural medicine. Where would this have left me if I was an island resident now? When I entered medical school in 1979, I went to Halifax, and got to experience a large teaching hospital with all the resources, and a breadth of clinical instructors spanning all specialties, and I was able to develop an interest in a particular specialty I was interested in. It doesn't sound like I would have been able to do that if I had been forced to attend the UPEI medical school. The expectation would have been that I was specifically training for rural family medicine. This is not fair.

Parochialization and Balkanization is bad. We should be aiming for a nationwide and universally accessible higher education system with minimal interprovincial barriers. Unfortunately, things are getting much worse, and certainly not better. If I had wanted to go to McGill Medical School, then why shouldn't I? Political meddling should not be allowed.......

I can't see how this could work when provincial taxpayers contribute such widely divergent shares of the cost of university education, depending on the province.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can't see how this could work when provincial taxpayers contribute such widely divergent shares of the cost of university education, depending on the province.

It's not how it should work. The provincial governments seem to treat medical schools like trade schools, but, MDs are not arc welders or carpenters. Medicine is a highly intellectual discipline, and should not be restricted or stultified by provincial statute or political edict. Cross fertilization and intellectual growth is extremely important for future advancement in health care trends. Smaller provinces are at risk of inferior care if access to more advanced medical schools is restricted by provincial edict.

I thought the whole idea of medicare was to provide equal medical care to all Canadians regardless of income level, ethnicity, spoken language or province of origin.

Obviously I was wrong........

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's not how it should work. The provincial governments seem to treat medical schools like trade schools, but, MDs are not arc welders or carpenters. Medicine is a highly intellectual discipline, and should not be restricted or stultified by provincial statute or political edict. Cross fertilization and intellectual growth is extremely important for future advancement in health care trends. Smaller provinces are at risk of inferior care if access to more advanced medical schools is restricted by provincial edict.

I thought the whole idea of medicare was to provide equal medical care to all Canadians regardless of income level, ethnicity, spoken language or province of origin.

Obviously I was wrong........

That ideal of medicare has been gone for a long time in this country. One of the key provisions of Canadian medicare is portability. That really doesn't exist as there's one province which refuses to adhere to the portability provision.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

That ideal of medicare has been gone for a long time in this country. One of the key provisions of Canadian medicare is portability. That really doesn't exist as there's one province which refuses to adhere to the portability provision.

Indeed, there is one province well known for not paying it's bills. I'm sure Acajack knows which one it is.........

[begratto]

Originally Posted by whatnext

From next fall, French (from France) students at Quebec universities will pay half the tuition fees that students from other provinces in Canada. Digest that for a moment.[/I]

https://twitter.com/IvisonJ/status/1714249852819759152

The agreement with France is reciprocal: Quebec residents that go study in France pay the same tuition fees as the locals (I.e. almost nothing)

Edit: Acajack has already explained this.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

They have to figure out what's more important, growing the labour market or saving on domestic ROC tuition? Or, their actual goal, keeping Anglophones (or anyone who's not a white, Catholic Francophone) out of the Province..

Is this 1947 or something? That’s such a weird thing to say

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed, there is one province well known for not paying it's bills. I'm sure Acajack knows which one it is.........

Not sure that's true as in my region where Ottawa hospitals report annual injections of tens of millions (sometimes hundreds) of dollars from Québec for the Gatineau patients they treat. It's even part of their budgeting so they count on it.

Some of them have even been said to keep Québec patients in beds longer because it provides "free" (sic) money.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think our resident forumer Le Calmar may have done one of these exchanges during his studies.

I sure did! First a student exchange, then a full masters “on my own” to take advantage of this agreement. Low tuition fees amounting to no more than $1,000 for the entire two years (it’s not exactly free at the masters level but it’s still insanely cheap), plus monthly CAF payments from the French government to help me pay the rent.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure that's true as in my region where Ottawa hospitals report annual injections of tens of millions (sometimes hundreds) of dollars from Québec for the Gatineau patients they treat. It's even part of their budgeting so they count on it.

Some of them have even been said to keep Québec patients in beds longer because it provides "free" (sic) money.

Perhaps there are special provisions in place for patients from western Quebec getting treatment in Ottawa hospitals. All I know is that we occasionally provide specialized medical services in Moncton for patients from the southern Gaspe coast, and, our providers always hate dealing with Quebec medicare. The claims are almost always subject to secondary review, and are frequently denied. I presume the invigilators are all in a huff over the fact that patients went to NB for care rather than down the road to Quebec City.

I am also aware of difficulty dealing with Quebec medicare from other providers elsewhere in the country.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There's actually nothing new about this set-up. Quebec has had an agreement with France and a few other places (Belgium) for decades at least. Our students pay local fees over there and their students pay our local resident fees here. If you're a Quebecer studying in France this means your university session could be virtually free. Since it is free for the French as well.

I think our resident forumer Le Calmar may have done one of these exchanges during his studies.

The result is that French students have been paying less than Ontario students in Quebec for quite a while now. Maybe decades.

Even francophone students from outside Quebec in Canada pay more than students from France or Belgium. Though I think there are exceptions for some programs, like the medicine program at the Université de Moncton which is affiliated with the Université de Sherbrooke and has lots of students from the Maritimes.

Manitoba and Minnesota have a similar reciprocity agreement. Manitoba students studying at participating schools in Minnesota will pay "in-state" tuition and Minnesota students studying in Manitoba pay domestic tuition.
https://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/ie/domestic/minnesota.html

It should be noted there is no differential for out-of-province Canadian students studying in Manitoba. They pay the same tuition as Manitoba students. There is a small cohort of Franco Quebec students who attend Universite de Saint-Boniface.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Manitoba and Minnesota have a similar reciprocity agreement. Manitoba students studying at participating schools in Minnesota will pay "in-state" tuition and Minnesota students studying in Manitoba pay domestic tuition.
https://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/ie/domestic/minnesota.html

It should be noted there is no differential for out-of-province Canadian students studying in Manitoba. They pay the same tuition as Manitoba students. There is a small cohort of Franco Quebec students who attend Universite de Saint-Boniface.

This is really only an issue for the provinces with rock-bottom tuition fees: QC and NL. (And actually not entirely linguistic in the case of QC even.)

Most of the other provinces have at least reasonably comparable tuition fee scales so there isn't a large movement of students between them based primarily on financial considerations.

NL doesn't have much of an issue because while MUN is a pretty comprehensive university it is seen as remote and out of the way by most prospective students.

Quebec is right next to 15 million people in Ontario and also has among other options an extremely prestigious anglophone institution teaching almost every single thing under the sun at a fairly high level.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

NL doesn't have much of an issue because while MUN is a pretty comprehensive university it is seen as remote and out of the way by most prospective students.

I'd guess they're pretty popular with students around Atlantic Canada and from a regional university student perspective that mostly revolves around going back home every so often St. John's is about as remote as Toronto. I'm surprised MUN kept their low tuition for so long.

Strangely my impression is neither NS nor NL distinguish much between in or out of province students but NL sets low fees for good accessibility (and maybe to attract better students than they otherwise would) while in NS students are treated as more of a cash cow. Not sure what it's like today but at one point Acadia and Dalhousie had the highest undergrad tuition in Canada.