City of Ottawa

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

I see what you mean. In terms of price inelasticity, there are obvious limits to that in terms of the fares you can charge. Obviously if you have fares that are higher than the cost of alternatives, you are going to lose big chunks of riders.

From what I've seen on service vs. ridership, there are all sorts of variables that change the impact on a particular route. What I haven't seen studied is the impact on service reductions on shorter urban trips. Based on observation, it certainly seems apparent that reducing service to 15 or 20 minutes on main urban routes means the loss of a big chunk of riders who are within a half hour walk of their destination, as it stops being worth waiting for the bus. Granted, these people aren't typically switching to driving, though they may end up in ubers and taxis more often. But they do represent lost passengers and lost revenue for the system.

Were they paying the cash fare before? If somebody walks from the market to Elgin instead of taking transit it is almost certainly a net gain for the city.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Were they paying the cash fare before? If somebody walks from the market to Elgin instead of taking transit it is almost certainly a net gain for the city.

Does anybody have a pass anymore? I assume my $4 (or whatever you put in change in the bus faregate since they don't really care) covers more than the cost of stopping for me and letting me off and the extra gas from my weight no?

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not really, you still have to maintain and plough the entire road network. At best you would save the marginal cost of extra lanes on arterial roads and maybe a minimal amount of wear and tear on roads (although trucks, buses and weather account for most wear and tear on roads).

I don't think there is any savings to making complete streets. There are obvious capital savings to not expanding the airport parkway I'm just saying the idea that Uhaniau doesn't use it but his food sits in traffic on that route so it matters to him is dubious.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Does anybody have a pass anymore? I assume my $4 (or whatever you put in change in the bus faregate since they don't really care) covers more than the cost of stopping for me and letting me off and the extra gas from my weight no?



I don't think there is any savings to making complete streets. There are obvious capital savings to not expanding the airport parkway I'm just saying the idea that Uhaniau doesn't use it but his food sits in traffic on that route so it matters to him is dubious.

But if they were making short trips before because they had a pass and now they don’t because they have to pay the full marginal cost then improving service probably won’t help much to increase paid revenue.

Even if there were zero private cars in the city, the city would still have to maintain Uhaniau‘s street and all the roads leading to Uhaniau‘s street so that Uhaniau can get emergency services, mail, Amazon deliveries, taxi services, etc. The city’s road budget would still probably be most of what it is now.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But if they were making short trips before because they had a pass and now they don’t because they have to pay the full marginal cost then improving service probably won’t help much to increase paid revenue.

100% agree

Originally Posted by acottawa

Even if there were zero private cars in the city, the city would still have to maintain Uhaniau‘s street and all the roads leading to Uhaniau‘s street so that Uhaniau can get emergency services, mail, Amazon deliveries, taxi services, etc. The city’s road budget would still probably be most of what it is now.

Yes. I guess cancelling all road expansions would save some money and they could sell off some roads. Vanier Parkway could be 2 lanes with 4 story buildings on the river side. But back here in the real world there isn't some magical progressive solution that sees a balanced budget and everyone moving around effortlessly in electrric shuttle busses.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Even if there were zero private cars in the city, the city would still have to maintain Uhaniau‘s street and all the roads leading to Uhaniau‘s street so that Uhaniau can get emergency services, mail, Amazon deliveries, taxi services, etc. The city’s road budget would still probably be most of what it is now.

That argument ignores a long of externalities. For example if there were no private cars the city itself would be a lot smaller area-wise due to the lack of massive surface lots. Less area = less roads in total. Most roads would likely be one or two lanes max without private vehicles, which currently make up the vast majority of traffic. And exorbitantly expensive projects like widening Bank St. in far flung suburbs wouldn't be necessary at all. In general I think it's a poor argument because the makeup of the city would be fundamentally different if you eliminated private cars altogether - there'd be little to no desire to seek spacious lots in quiet suburbs if the caveat is that you don't have a private vehicle to get you to/from your little nook in the corner of the city.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

That argument ignores a long of externalities. For example if there were no private cars the city itself would be a lot smaller area-wise due to the lack of massive surface lots. Less area = less roads in total. Most roads would likely be one or two lanes max without private vehicles, which currently make up the vast majority of traffic. And exorbitantly expensive projects like widening Bank St. in far flung suburbs wouldn't be necessary at all. In general I think it's a poor argument because the makeup of the city would be fundamentally different if you eliminated private cars altogether - there'd be little to no desire to seek spacious lots in quiet suburbs if the caveat is that you don't have a private vehicle to get you to/from your little nook in the corner of the city.

Yeah, but you would also need a lot more warehouses full of delivery vehicles, a lot more open space for taxi stands and minibuses, etc. There is a certain efficiency with people driving to a relatively centralized location rather than having to decentralize everything.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's pretty rare on our system for people to be taking the LRT 2 stops or a 2 km bus ride though. And frequencies and costs obviously make this lower. I know many here would love to live in a city where those kind of trips are easy, affordable and convenient and also replace the 5 km drives most of us do but that is going to a take a lot more than tinkering so we should be realistic.

This is where I lose you. It’s not rare at all for people to take 2-3 km rides a few times a week. Or at least it wasn’t. That was exactly my situation. Previously I would split my commit between walking and taking transit, and would take the bus to the Market or to go out multiple times a week. All roughly 2 km and always paying using Presto.

My neighbourhood was full of people doing that. I imagine if you draw a circle out 3 km from downtown you would get lots more people with similar habits. Go 4 or 5 and it’s a significant portion of your ridership A huge chunk of those regular transit users have been lost due to cuts, and that is pure lost revenue for the system.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by phil235

This is where I lose you. It’s not rare at all for people to take 2-3 km rides a few times a week. Or at least it wasn’t. That was exactly my situation. Previously I would split my commit between walking and taking transit, and would take the bus to the Market or to go out multiple times a week. All roughly 2 km and always paying using Presto.

My neighbourhood was full of people doing that. I imagine if you draw a circle out 3 km from downtown you would get lots more people with similar habits. Go 4 or 5 and it’s a significant portion of your ridership A huge chunk of those regular transit users have been lost due to cuts, and that is pure lost revenue for the system.

Yup same here living in Centretown. Quick ride on the 11 to visit a buddy in Chinatown. Or a few stops on Line 1 to visit friends in Westboro. Or down Bank St. on the 6/7 to for dinner/drinks in the Glebe or a Redblacks game at Lansdowne. To me, this is the type of mobility pattern we need to capitalize on to have a transit system that's successful outside of commuting hours.

As intensification continues and new residents continue to move into these central neighbourhoods, we need to provide good transit service because once these folks make their decisions about how they're going to get around, it'll be hard to change their minds.

This is why I keep saying forget about putting buses in the suburbs apart from AM/PM commuters and passable service on arterials. Instead, use those buses to bolster frequency on key urban corridors such that people don't have to worry about schedules anymore. 10-15 min or less all day (not OCT's definition of "all day" which ends at 6pm) on routes 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14. Short turn some of those buses if necessary.

It'd be a game changer. Myself and my friends who live around me aren't like suburbanites who need to be shown the red carpet before transit becomes more appealing than loading up the Chevy Suburban. For us, we're begging for alternatives to pulling the car out of the 4th level of the underground garage just to drive 3km to Lansdowne and deal with parking all over again. But sometimes that's the only option when it's January and you don't wanna walk or bike in -20 and buses are running at 30 min frequency on Bank. Taking 4-5+ ubers a week adds up real quick too.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

This is where I lose you. It’s not rare at all for people to take 2-3 km rides a few times a week. Or at least it wasn’t. That was exactly my situation. Previously I would split my commit between walking and taking transit, and would take the bus to the Market or to go out multiple times a week. All roughly 2 km and always paying using Presto.

My neighbourhood was full of people doing that. I imagine if you draw a circle out 3 km from downtown you would get lots more people with similar habits. Go 4 or 5 and it’s a significant portion of your ridership A huge chunk of those regular transit users have been lost due to cuts, and that is pure lost revenue for the system.

Not rare but not enough to support the service or it wouldn't have been cut. These trips are a tiny percentage of revenue. The idea a huge chunk of this was lost because busses run less frequently alos seems dubious. For sure cuts and fare increases and Uber/scooters/bike lanes make these less common though I think the latter are biggest factor of the three.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Yup same here living in Centretown. Quick ride on the 11 to visit a buddy in Chinatown. Or a few stops on Line 1 to visit friends in Westboro. Or down Bank St. on the 6/7 to for dinner/drinks in the Glebe or a Redblacks game at Lansdowne. To me, this is the type of mobility pattern we need to capitalize on to have a transit system that's successful outside of commuting hours.

As intensification continues and new residents continue to move into these central neighbourhoods, we need to provide good transit service because once these folks make their decisions about how they're going to get around, it'll be hard to change their minds.

This is why I keep saying forget about putting buses in the suburbs apart from AM/PM commuters and passable service on arterials. Instead, use those buses to bolster frequency on key urban corridors such that people don't have to worry about schedules anymore. 10-15 min or less all day (not OCT's definition of "all day" which ends at 6pm) on routes 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14. Short turn some of those buses if necessary.

It'd be a game changer. Myself and my friends who live around me aren't like suburbanites who need to be shown the red carpet before transit becomes more appealing than loading up the Chevy Suburban. For us, we're begging for alternatives to pulling the car out of the 4th level of the underground garage just to drive 3km to Lansdowne and deal with parking all over again. But sometimes that's the only option when it's January and you don't wanna walk or bike in -20 and buses are running at 30 min frequency on Bank. Taking 4-5+ ubers a week adds up real quick too.

So you were paying the cash fare before (i.e. you did not have a pass) and you stopped paying the cash fare after a particular round of cuts? And now you are driving to Chinatown or the Glebe?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

This is where I lose you. It’s not rare at all for people to take 2-3 km rides a few times a week. Or at least it wasn’t. That was exactly my situation. Previously I would split my commit between walking and taking transit, and would take the bus to the Market or to go out multiple times a week. All roughly 2 km and always paying using Presto.

My neighbourhood was full of people doing that. I imagine if you draw a circle out 3 km from downtown you would get lots more people with similar habits. Go 4 or 5 and it’s a significant portion of your ridership A huge chunk of those regular transit users have been lost due to cuts, and that is pure lost revenue for the system.

It is only lost revenue if the number of extra buses they need to induce this kind of usage is covered by the fare box, which seems unlikely to me.

Even in cities with a more robust transit system than Ottawa it would be pretty rare to pay a new transit fare for a 2 km trip.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is only lost revenue if the number of extra buses they need to induce this kind of usage is covered by the fare box, which seems unlikely to me.

Even in cities with a more robust transit system than Ottawa it would be pretty rare to pay a new transit fare for a 2 km trip.

Again, not rare. I've lived in Toronto and Montreal and those kinds of trips are very common for people in the urban area who don't commute every day. Those people are not going to have a pass, but they do tend to buy a 10-trip card or equivalent to use when they need it (of course that option isn't available in Ottawa because OC Transpo completely lacks imagination).

As for covering the fare, you are right it would not cover the full operating costs. But no transit fare does, in Canada at least. The point is that these types of rides and riders cover far more of the operating costs than a long distance commuter does, and they do it throughout the day. This is less about adding extra buses and more about refocusing transit where it is used regularly and as an all day service and where it is more economically viable.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So you were paying the cash fare before (i.e. you did not have a pass) and you stopped paying the cash fare after a particular round of cuts? And now you are driving to Chinatown or the Glebe?

Highly doubtful and certainly the word rare applies if true.

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is only lost revenue if the number of extra buses they need to induce this kind of usage is covered by the fare box, which seems unlikely to me.

Even in cities with a more robust transit system than Ottawa it would be pretty rare to pay a new transit fare for a 2 km trip.

Yes unless it's free or nearly so.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by phil235

A huge chunk of those regular transit users have been lost due to cuts, and that is pure lost revenue for the system.

The loss of some of those customers and trips is bad, but the worse public policy outcome is that OC Transpo's best/most captive customers end up having to endure the absolute shittiest service.

I would love our transit overseers to have to do their grocery shopping, as so many of those customers do, on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, trying to squeeze themselves and their purchases onto a 7 on Bank or the 19 on St-Laurent.

Bonus if, as usual, the 7 is being run on a 40-foot bus that is already full before it even gets to the grocery-store-dense parts of the route.

Meanwhile, for the comfort and convenience of suburban east-end 9-5 commuters, we are running something called the E1 at no small expense, to try and shut up the whining.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by phil235

As for covering the fare, you are right it would not cover the full operating costs. But no transit fare does, in Canada at least.

The last time OC Transpo released stats on revenue by route, there were two routes that "turned a profit" at the farebox, and one that was pretty well break-even. They were the equivalents of today's 6, 7, and 11/12.

OC Transpo, naturally, stopped releasing any such statistics, the same as they don't publish detailed ridership stats by route, or on-time performance stats, or anything else that might inform discussions about transit or cause OC Transpo management some mild embarrassment.

And no one who should care, seems to care about the secrecy and lack of accountability.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Not rare but not enough to support the service or it wouldn't have been cut. These trips are a tiny percentage of revenue. The idea a huge chunk of this was lost because busses run less frequently alos seems dubious. For sure cuts and fare increases and Uber/scooters/bike lanes make these less common though I think the latter are biggest factor of the three.

It'd be helpful if you can point to the data that supports this. Like others here, one of my primary uses cases for OC Transpo are short 2-3km trips (and slightly longer sometimes like 4-5km). In fact that's pretty much all I use it for. This is anecdotal so I won't say with any certainty that this pattern is normal across all transit users in this city but I doubt it's rare.

I agree that Uber is probably a huge factor impacting OC Transpo but I know of many folks, myself included, who opt for Uber specifically because OC Transpo runs too infrequently or is not reliable. It's just a faster way to travel past 6PM within the city because of service reductions.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

It'd be helpful if you can point to the data that supports this. Like others here, one of my primary uses cases for OC Transpo are short 2-3km trips (and slightly longer sometimes like 4-5km). In fact that's pretty much all I use it for. This is anecdotal so I won't say with any certainty that this pattern is normal across all transit users in this city but I doubt it's rare.

I agree that Uber is probably a huge factor impacting OC Transpo but I know of many folks, myself included, who opt for Uber specifically because OC Transpo runs too infrequently or is not reliable. It's just a faster way to travel past 6PM within the city because of service reductions.

My use of OCTranspo is the same but I'm a 5 trip a month person.
I don't know if they have an trip length stats. We know commuters are the bulk of passengers.

Anecdotally. When I take the LRT from Rideau to Lyon or St. Laurent or even with the bus to Westboro it's very rare someone who I board with gets off at a non bus location or gets off after a few stops on the Westboro bus.

[rocketphish]

No, the feds aren't shortchanging the City of Ottawa
Mayor Mark Sutcliffe is setting up higher levels of government to take the blame if property taxes rise significantly in the 2025 budget.

Mohammed Adam
Published Aug 22, 2024 • Last updated 1 hour ago • 3 minute read

Ottawa Mayor Mark Sutcliffe is getting strong pushback against his attempt to blame federal and provincial governments for the city’s “financial crisis” — and rightly so.

Last week, Sutcliffe torched federal and provincial governments for shortchanging the city by millions of dollars in payment-in-lieu of taxes (PILTs) and transit funding. “It is not an exaggeration to say Ottawa is facing a financial crisis, and I want to be clear that it’s a crisis that is not of own making,” Sutcliffe said. “If we don’t get some answers from the federal and provincial governments in the next 60 to 90 days, we are going to have to make some very tough decisions.”

But if Ottawa is in a financial crisis, it is largely of the city’s making, not the federal government’s, which Sutcliffe is bashing. What Sutcliffe is really doing is setting up higher levels of government for the blame if property taxes rise significantly in the 2025 budget.

Council will resume sitting on Sept. 4 after the summer break, with budget discussions topping the fall agenda. Then on Dec. 11, when council meets to approve the budget, we’ll know if it has learned anything from regularly setting lower property taxes even as inflation increased the cost of running the city.

For years, city hall stubbornly stuck to lower taxes, while neglecting vital services Ottawa needs in order to thrive. Look at our bad roads and you see the consequences that neglect. It’s not all Sutcliffe’s fault, but he shares some of the blame.

Last December, when the council approved a 2.5 per cent tax increase, I wrote a column questioning whether that was sustainable. We all love to pay lower taxes, but I wondered if it would have been better to spread the pain slowly so that down the road, we don’t have to gulp down bigger increases, which Sutcliffe is intimating may be inevitable.

Ottawa increased taxes by 2.5 per cent, when inflation was at 3.9 per cent in 2023 and 6.8 the year before. Compare Ottawa with Toronto, which recently increased taxes by 9.5 per cent; Calgary, 7.8 per cent; Edmonton, 8.9 per cent and Vancouver, 7.5 per cent.

Over the 10-year period from 2014 to 2024, the cumulative tax increase in Ottawa was 26.91 per cent. For Toronto, it was 36.47 per cent; Calgary, 39.3; Edmonton, 39.86; and Vancouver, 56.99 per cent. In Ottawa, we pride ourselves on holding taxes below the rate of inflation, oblivious to the long-term consequences. Now the chickens may be coming home to roost.

Sutcliffe’s complaint is that the federal government hasn’t paid its fair share of PILTs, handing the city $30 million less today than it did eight years ago. According to him, the city is owed about $100 million. Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) records show that Ottawa was paid $122.7 million in 2019; $124.8 million in 2020; $114.6 in 2021; and $119.6 million in 2022. Last year, it was $124 million.

What Ottawa gets from PILTs is no small change, and its financial problem is not because the feds are shortchanging the city. The feds have long had the power to decide the value of their properties and pay PILTs accordingly. If the city feels it has been shortchanged, it should seek redress from a panel that exists for that purpose. If it hasn’t done so, that says a lot. The reality of the city’s financial crisis is largely because it has made bad choices on how it spends money, and has poorly managed some of the big projects, including LRT, that have ended up costing more money.

Yes, the federal and provincial governments can certainly do more for the city, especially helping OC Transpo out of its $140-million annual deficit, and hopefully that will happen soon. But on the big picture, Sutcliffe and council must look in the mirror, because the real culprit may be staring right back at them.

Mohammed Adam is an Ottawa journalist and commentator. Reach him at nylamiles48@gmail.com

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/ad...city-of-ottawa

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So you were paying the cash fare before (i.e. you did not have a pass) and you stopped paying the cash fare after a particular round of cuts? And now you are driving to Chinatown or the Glebe?

It’s not about a particular round of cuts, but rather the overall, continual degradation of service and the culture towards providing good service (or lack thereof) that exists within the agency. I don’t need a monthly pass because of fare capping but I routinely come across situations where transit would/should be a good option but is unfeasible due to factors like schedule, delays, time (due to meandering routes) etc.

But if you’re talking about marginal cost of each trip I can tell you anecdotally that nearly every bus in the suburbs outside of rush hour is basically empty, and most buses on the routes I mentioned earlier are nearly full, no matter the time of day or day of the week. OCT sees many of them of captive riders, which is true, but these are diverse neighbourhoods and you’re missing out on trips from the many young professionals who own cars but would rather not use them because it’s a PITA to do so, yet unfortunately taking transit is a slightly bigger PITA.

Edit: Tying it back to the City as I lost track of which thread we’re in, you can’t continue to evaluate transit from a P/L perspective. It’s a cost centre and will be for the foreseeable future, just like in other cities. But it’s hard to measure the trickle down benefit of providing good service. How many Redblacks tickets or tix for other Lansdowne events are being foregone because transit isn’t quite enticing enough? How many tourists who’ve struggled with our transit system are telling folks back home to leave Ottawa off their itinerary? How many business travellers to Ottawa are opting to hang onto their per diem instead of spending it because the transit options near their hotels aren’t good enough? And most importantly, how many Ottawans are sitting their asses at home on the couch instead of going out and consuming goods, services, entertainment, etc. all because transit isn’t up to par? You assume people will just drive or uber but that isn’t always the case, many times they won’t go altogether.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

It’s not about a particular round of cuts, but rather the overall, continual degradation of service and the culture towards providing good service (or lack thereof) that exists within the agency. I don’t need a monthly pass because of fare capping but I routinely come across situations where transit would/should be a good option but is unfeasible due to factors like schedule, delays, time (due to meandering routes) etc.

But if you’re talking about marginal cost of each trip I can tell you anecdotally that nearly every bus in the suburbs outside of rush hour is basically empty, and most buses on the routes I mentioned earlier are nearly full, no matter the time of day or day of the week. OCT sees many of them of captive riders, which is true, but these are diverse neighbourhoods and you’re missing out on trips from the many young professionals who own cars but would rather not use them because it’s a PITA to do so, yet unfortunately taking transit is a slightly bigger PITA.

Edit: Tying it back to the City as I lost track of which thread we’re in, you can’t continue to evaluate transit from a P/L perspective. It’s a cost centre and will be for the foreseeable future, just like in other cities. But it’s hard to measure the trickle down benefit of providing good service. How many Redblacks tickets or tix for other Lansdowne events are being foregone because transit isn’t quite enticing enough? How many tourists who’ve struggled with our transit system are telling folks back home to leave Ottawa off their itinerary? How many business travellers to Ottawa are opting to hang onto their per diem instead of spending it because the transit options near their hotels aren’t good enough? And most importantly, how many Ottawans are sitting their asses at home on the couch instead of going out and consuming goods, services, entertainment, etc. all because transit isn’t up to par? You assume people will just drive or uber but that isn’t always the case, many times they won’t go altogether.

I know what you mean some of the dicsussions overlap.

I will say I don't disagree with any of your points. The amount of money we need to change this is really not in the cards. Even as a downtown dweller I probably don't want to pay another $500 a year in property taxes for better bus service. We are a suburban city and there is no amount of money that can stich them into the network especially outsdie of commuting hours and the service they do have as you say is hardly used. We should therefore be realistic. Let's discuss some realistic ways out of this mess for example a dramtic increase in parking rates and a parking tax on private parking might be a good revenue generator and help encourage transit trips. Straightening routes to increase time and lower costs.