DENVER | Transportation Thread

[SnyderBock]

Here is my new complete plan, incremented in phases (which is color coded). Again, this streetcar system feeds into Civic Center Station, where it goes subway and runs below 17th Street to Union Station. The 16th Street Mall and free mall shuttle all remain, as is now:

Go ahead and zoom in on this, to see it better--it helps!

[The Dirt]

Has there ever been a plan or talk about burying any or all of the cross streets? I can see your point on the monorail, but with the buses, isn't there at all a concern with foot traffic being hindered by cross streets and bus lanes dissecting the mall? I favor a streetcar line - especially since it won't pollute - but what are their disadvantages to bus? Do they have more limited stopping and reversing power?

[blm3034L!fe]

WHEN THE HELL IS CONSTRUCTION GOING TO START ON UNION STATION!?!?!?

It's been like 2 1/2 Years already since the area voted and approved the tax increase and the team has been chosen for well over 1 1/2 years now, I think it's about time to get the ball rolling don't you think?

[SnyderBock]

In case of the Mall, the advantage of a streetcar over the current bus system is minimal, but with great cost. In fact, the streetcar would pose more of a barrier than the current bus line. I don't think the bus lanes hinder people from crossing them; they seem to do so freely. There might be more reluctance to cross tracks, however.

What I am saying, is if you have a Central Denver streetcar system with Civic center Station as it's hub, then a subway connection from Civic center Station to Union Station would make since and at the same time relieve enough congestion off the 16th Street Free Mall Shuttle to keep it viable well into the future.

Obviously the 18th Street shuttle is the first so attempt to keep the 16th Street mall shuttle viable. However, this will probably eventually have to be relocated to 20th Street.

[ragerunner1]

Question and little of the current topic.

Can anyone give me the history (reason) why the light rail line is not planned to go to Castle Rock? I have heard two different opinions - one was the voters in Castle Rock don't want it the other was that the light rail trains can't navigate the large hill going into Castle Rock.

[mgmAZCO]

My guess would be that Castle Rock isn't part of RTD's geographic boundaries. It's a regional district...and I think Castle Rock is outside of it.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by blm3034L!fe

WHEN THE HELL IS CONSTRUCTION GOING TO START ON UNION STATION!?!?!?

It's been like 2 1/2 Years already since the area voted and approved the tax increase and the team has been chosen for well over 1 1/2 years now, I think it's about time to get the ball rolling don't you think?

It's all part of the master plan to trod along at snail speed, jump through bureaucratic milestones and allow every granny from "them there hills" to comment on how the new buildings will block her views of just about everything in the universe. Seriously, though, I think they're still on schedule, as slow that schedule is. Except, now, with the economic meltdown hitting pretty hard, I don't see much of this remaining on schedule.

[Cirrus]

Castle Rock is outside the boundaries of RTD. Castle Rock could join RTD and tax itself, but has yet to do so. Also, I don't know about the hill, but Castle Rock is an awfully long way away for a light rail line. At that point you're more likely talking about a stop on a commuter rail line that goes all the way to Colorado Springs. Frankly, if you live in Castle Rock you shouldn't expect direct rail service right now. Live closer if you want to use a train.

As for monorails, the reason so few cities have them is that they're generally a bad mode. You get light rail capacity for metrorail cost, and you get no flexibility for at-grade or subway. Honestly, monorails are not really a serious form of transit except in a very rare set of circumstances.

[blm3034L!fe]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Castle Rock is outside the boundaries of RTD. Castle Rock could join RTD and tax itself, but has yet to do so. Also, I don't know about the hill, but Castle Rock is an awfully long way away for a light rail line. At that point you're more likely talking about a stop on a commuter rail line that goes all the way to Colorado Springs. Frankly, if you live in Castle Rock you shouldn't expect direct rail service right now. Live closer if you want to use a train.

Agree

As for monorails, the reason so few cities have them is that they're generally a bad mode. You get light rail capacity for metrorail cost, and you get no flexibility for at-grade or subway. Honestly, monorails are not really a serious form of transit except in a very rare set of circumstances.

High Speed Monorail or Maglev would be ideal in a train option from Union Station to the Vail Valley IMHO. Especially for hosting the Olympics!!!

We all know it is coming, after the Fast tracks plan is in place we can expect an announcement for throwing in our hat at the Winter Olympics it might not be until 2020 But I'll take it, by then Denver will be ready and then some...

[BroncosCountry]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

In case of the Mall, the advantage of a streetcar over the current bus system is minimal, but with great cost. In fact, the streetcar would pose more of a barrier than the current bus line. I don't think the bus lanes hinder people from crossing them; they seem to do so freely. There might be more reluctance to cross tracks, however.

What I am saying, is if you have a Central Denver streetcar system with Civic center Station as it's hub, then a subway connection from Civic center Station to Union Station would make since and at the same time relieve enough congestion off the 16th Street Free Mall Shuttle to keep it viable well into the future.

Obviously the 18th Street shuttle is the first so attempt to keep the 16th Street mall shuttle viable. However, this will probably eventually have to be relocated to 20th Street.

When you're crossing tracks, you just look before you cross just as you would cross the bus lanes. Not sure I see the difference.

Speaking of street cars, why don't we just go ahead and replace those 300 miles of lost street car tracks we once had? We seem to be finding out the buildings of that era were highly valuable, so why not the transit? The thing is, our cities have lost so much of what has made them great because we "derailed" from our early 1900's way of civil engineering. That's part of why European cities are so great; they were built so long ago before the auto. Ever been to St. Augustine, FL? Built in the 1600's and today it is only a city of about 100k people. Yet it is much more walkable than many cities with 20 times its population. Great cities are designed around people, not cars!

[SnyderBock]

Crossing tracks posses a psychological barrier. It forms a distinct boundary line. It creates a disruption in the pavers and would result in a canopy overhead. To me, the idea of darting out in front of a bus is not as scary as a train.We all know trains don't stop as fast.

Then you will have tracks crossing tracks, when the 16th Street tracks cross over the existing Central Corridor.

However, if the 16th Street Mall ever is tracked, I don't think Denver will ever build a subway line from Civic center Station to Union Station. It will diverge too greatly from the ideal master transportation plan, to move forward in that dirrection. Sometimes it's better not to do it at all, if you can't do it right. At least then you leave a chance for the next generation to do it right, without having to tear out all the crap you built first.

[mgmAZCO]

Yeah Denver might be a strong candidate for the 2018 or 2022 winter games. With the FastTracks and other improvements (hopefully) on the way, it would put forth a strong bid.

I thought Chicago was a shoe-in for the 2016 summer games, but with the recent political turmoil it might not happen...even with Obama as Prez. It should be interesting to see what happens.

[The Dirt]

Would the (local) political turmoil pose any threat to an international event? Does the governor have a huge role in sucking up to the Olympic committee?

If Chicago does indeed get the 2016 games, I think Denver won't have a shot for at least 12 years after that.

[mgmAZCO]

I would imagine the governor plays a role in garnering an event of that size and magnitude. I just think the IOC would not want to deal with an ongoing scandal, they've had enough of those in their past. This IL think could play out for a while...and Chicago politics aren't exactly clean (understatement of the century). I just get the feeling they might want to avoid the whole issue, unless things get sorted out quickly.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Crossing tracks posses a psychological barrier. It forms a distinct boundary line. It creates a disruption in the pavers and would result in a canopy overhead. To me, the idea of darting out in front of a bus is not as scary as a train.We all know trains don't stop as fast.

Then you will have tracks crossing tracks, when the 16th Street tracks cross over the existing Central Corridor.

However, if the 16th Street Mall ever is tracked, I don't think Denver will ever build a subway line from Civic center Station to Union Station. It will diverge too greatly from the ideal master transportation plan, to move forward in that dirrection. Sometimes it's better not to do it at all, if you can't do it right. At least then you leave a chance for the next generation to do it right, without having to tear out all the crap you built first.

You do know that the Denver Strategic Transportation Plan does consider the implementation of a second rail corridor, surface of sub-surface, as a given after the current plan's time window runs out, circa 2025. This corridor would replace/compliment the 18th St. circulator. It's a given with further enhancements to the south and east in terms of mass transit corridors that a second pathway into downtown would have to be developed.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Would the (local) political turmoil pose any threat to an international event? Does the governor have a huge role in sucking up to the Olympic committee?

If Chicago does indeed get the 2016 games, I think Denver won't have a shot for at least 12 years after that.

Salt Lake was awarded the games in fairly short order following the Atlanta games.

I have a gut feeling that the IOC will jump at the chance to get a games in Denver. This city is ubiquitous with winter sports the world over. Colorado is literally famous the world over... I lived in Italy for a few years. There are three things every European knows when it comes to the United States:

1. New York
2. Colorado
3. California

We spurned the games once, but I think they will happily award us the games if we make a truly serious bid Chicago not withstanding.

[blm3034L!fe]

^ I think you are right enjo, we will see, only time will tell. I think Denver is waiting to get some things lined up before they go for the Olympics.

But trust me IT WILL HAPPEN.

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You do know that the Denver Strategic Transportation Plan does consider the implementation of a second rail corridor, surface of sub-surface, as a given after the current plan's time window runs out, circa 2025. This corridor would replace/compliment the 18th St. circulator. It's a given with further enhancements to the south and east in terms of mass transit corridors that a second pathway into downtown would have to be developed.

Exactly, they won't track 16th Street Mall, then go a track 17th or 18th street (whether it be surface or subsurface).

An interesting concept would be to keep and upgrade the 16th Street and 18th Street circulator buses, for easy block to block foot traffic, then a sub-surface line down 17th Street from Union Station to Civic Center Station to connect those two stations together. Then turn Civic Center Station into the hub of a Central Denver Streetcar system.

Then they might want to add a circulator bus to both 20th and 14th Streets as well. I think then the transformation of another street to pedestrian only, such as California and perhaps another one in LoDo such as Wynkoop would be worth consideration.

[DenverTrans]

Converting the 16th St. Mall to rail would solve numerous problems at once:

- pavers could be retained as is, because without the buses, they wouldn't shift.

- Capacity would be increased greatly over buses

- Quiet, electric, low-maintenance, low operating cost (compared to buses).

Specific technology:

-Direct fixation rails in concrete trenches in the existing street base. A fairly cost effective solution. You could use low-profile rails only a few inches tall. There would be little need to change the existing pavers.

- Trams on pedestrian streets ("malls") exist throughout the world, especially in Europe. It doesn't mess up the streetscape, it enhances it.

[blm3034L!fe]

^ I agree

LR along the 1.8 Mile stretch of downtown Denvers 16th street mall would be HUGE for the growth and overall development of the downtown core IMHO.

With Union Station and the Lightrail going metrowide now, it only makes sense for downtown Denver's own little pedestrian strip mall in the center of downtown to include LR as well... I am going to keep my fingers crossed and hope the city's planners come up with something.