Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have no doubts that the two markets the CFL are really interested in is Quebec City and Halifax (with Halifax having the inside edge given QC's current preoccupation with the NHL).

I however take umbrage with a couple of the statements in some of the recent posts above.

The Moncton Stadium is not an embarrassment. You have to keep in mind that it is a university track & field stadium and was not built as a dedicated football stadium. If you view it in that light, it is actually one of the more impressive facilities of it's kind in the country. At 10,000 permanent seats and with a Mondo track surface, it is viewed quite favourably by the Canadian Track & Field Association. It has held the Canadian national track & field championships twice, the IAAF World Junior Track & Field Championships in 2010 (for which the facility was built) as well as the FIFA U20 Women's World Cup in 2014 and the FIFA Women's World Cup in 2015. In addition, the stadium has played host to not one, not two but three regular season CFL games. Attendance was as high as 20,725 for the first CFL game and 13,138 for one of the FIFA games, which, considering that Team Canada did not play in Moncton, compares favourably to attendances at other venues in the country.

No, the Moncton Stadium is not an embarrassment.

It is however definitely not a football stadium, and if Moncton were ever to consider getting into the running for a CFL team, I think a new facility would have to be built.

Moncton is not incapable of doing such a thing. We are currently building a new $113M 9,000 seat downtown arena and events centre which will open in 2018. The seating capacity of this arena will compare quite favourably to ScotiaBank Centre in Halifax (10,595 seats). Given this, why would a purpose built modest CFL stadium with 25,000 seats be out of the question?

Having said all this, I do accept that Moncton will not be getting the next CFL expansion team, and will not for some time. I think the Touchdown Atlantic games were held in Moncton just as a ploy by the CFL to goad Halifax into mounting a bid for a CFL franchise. While Halifax's civic pride was wounded for a time, and pubic outrage in the NS capital led to a minor municipal response, things seem to have settled down again. There are currently no plans in Halifax to build a CFL ready stadium.

Things to keep in mind:

1) - Moncton will surpass 150,000 people in it's CMA by early next year and Moncton should reach 200,000 by mid century if the current growth rate is maintained. How big was Regina when it got it's CFL franchise?
2) - A team in Halifax would be Nova Scotia's team. New Brunswick has been proudly and fiercely independent of NS since 1785. Halifax's dominance of the region is viewed with some ambivalence and disdain in NB. I think an NB team in Moncton could be well supported in NB (and PEI) and a natural rivalry would exist between the two Maritime franchises.
3) - There is a strong football culture in southeastern NB (and in southern NB in general). There would be a ready built fan base for any team based here.

My predictions:

team #10 will be in Halifax, but probably won't occur for at least another 8-10 years.
teams #11 & 12 will be in Quebec City and someplace in the west ( to allow for regional balance, possibly in Victoria).

If the CFL ever expands to 16 teams, I expect Moncton will be in the mix. This probably won't be until 2060-75 or so, and I will long since be dead, but I fully expect this could be a possibility.

Hence the big question - just how big does the CFL want to be? Is the answer 10 teams, 12 teams or 16 teams? The answer depends on the greed of the team owners. If the team owners don't want to split up the TV revenues pie much more than it is now, then the CFL likely will never get any larger than 12 teams.

The Saskatchewan Roughriders started back in 1910 as the Regina Rugby Club. (The club continuously evolved since then.) In 1910, there was no CFL.

As for Regina's population, it was approximately 25,000 in 1910. Times have changed, so I wouldn't be comparing today's CFL to teams back then. With regards to an expansion team to Moncton/Halifax, it certainly would be nice to have another team in Eastern Canada though.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No, there is no burning desire for a CFL team in Halifax (or anywhere in the Maritimes) like there is for the NHL in Quebec City.

But there was no burning desire for the NHL in many US cities that have become successful markets for the NHL.

I think that the sentiment in the Maritimes is that it would be cool to have a pro sports option. The NHL is not realistic and so the CFL is the best shot they have. There is nothing wrong with this.

That's a good point. There are probably more NHL markets where people are generally indifferent to hockey than ones that are legitimately passionate for the game (basically the 7 Canadian cities, 4 Original Six US cities and a few US cities that get snow like Buffalo, St. Paul and Philadelphia).

In most other places the teams exist because there are enough people to support it and a suitable venue. Most people in Phoenix or Dallas couldn't give a rip about hockey. But enough people do to support the team.

I suspect that a CFL team in Halifax would probably be better off in terms of generating fan interest than the Stars do in Dallas, for example.

Of course, the economics of the CFL are such that it's obviously tough to build a $150 million+ stadium for 10 games plus a couple of other events each year. Places like Regina and Hamilton (or Green Bay, if you want to look south of the border) have teams because they're basically grandfathered from the days when pro football meant a few hundred people standing on the sidelines... the stadiums grew with the teams, and if those places didn't have football teams early on, it's doubtful they'd be on the list to get teams now. So clearly it's an uphill battle to get football into NS.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

Of course, the economics of the CFL are such that it's obviously tough to build a $150 million+ stadium for 10 games plus a couple of other events each year.

I think if the stars aligned perfectly it wouldn't be out of the question. For instance if Halifax could secure an event to spark the need for a Stadium, you have at the very least provincial support. So between that, the city and a possible private sector the funding might be plausible, add to that a couple of grey cups guaranteed to the city within a 5-8 year period means 100M-150M a pop that Halifax would gain to it's local economy. Also dependent on the ownership of the team an agreement can be made that any or partial grey cup profits will be surrendered to the stadium debt. If Hamilton can get it done I don't see why Halifax can't.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I suspect that a CFL team in Halifax would probably be better off in terms of generating fan interest than the Stars do in Dallas, for example.

Hockey's footprint in Dallas has grown substantially for what it's worth.

[Oilkountry]

I feel like sportsnet absolutely trolled TFC fans and does it ever show on twitter a lot of of butt hurt soccer fans. Goes back to my point that the rest of Canada will look at BMO as the Argos stadium Just the nature of the CFL in this country compared to the MLS. What's really funny about the tweet is instead of deleting it they just made another one and added TFC second to the Argos and didn't delete the first one...priceless

https://twitter.com/SportsCentre/status/701542370052087809

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I feel like sportsnet absolutely trolled TFC fans and does it ever show on twitter a lot of of butt hurt soccer fans. Goes back to my point that the rest of Canada will look at BMO as the Argos stadium Just the nature of the CFL in this country compared to the MLS

https://twitter.com/SportsCentre/status/701542370052087809

SportsCentre is TSN (Bell), not Sportsnet (Rogers).

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Nathan

SportsCentre is TSN (Bell), not Sportsnet (Rogers).

I'm well aware. But Sportsnet is well aware who is the "primary" tenant at BMO is

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I'm well aware. But Sportsnet is well aware who is the "primary" tenant at BMO is

Sportsnet had nothing to do with that tweet...

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I'm well aware. But Sportsnet is well aware who is the "primary" tenant at BMO is

They do?

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Sportsnet had nothing to do with that tweet...

Oh jesus! I see what youre saying, my bad! duh I completely meant sports centre took me a while to clue in why you were correcting me

[esquire]

^ The butthurt is strong in the response to that tweet... "b-b-b-but MLSE told TFC that they're the primary tenant!"

Good God, who cares.

Although that said, I'm sure many a philandering wife has told her husband the same thing on being found out... "Don't worry dear, you'll always be the primary tenant!"

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I'd say there is probably a "build it and they will come" side to all of this.

No, there is no burning desire for a CFL team in Halifax (or anywhere in the Maritimes) like there is for the NHL in Quebec City.

But there was no burning desire for the NHL in many US cities that have become successful markets for the NHL.

I think that the sentiment in the Maritimes is that it would be cool to have a pro sports option. The NHL is not realistic and so the CFL is the best shot they have. There is nothing wrong with this.

This is basically my take on it too. The Halifax area is somewhat under-served as far as professional sports go, and maybe the CFL would satisfy some of that demand. The stadium is the only real holdup. The lack of a stadium's not an insurmountable obstacle though. There just needs to be somebody to champion the project.

[TimB09]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Hockey's footprint in Dallas has grown substantially for what it's worth.

Big time. It's also worth noting that the marketing budget is huge in Dallas this year with an owner that cares. They've sold out pretty much every home game this year. Helps when you have an owner that cares and the team wins.

I'm a HUGE Stars fan so I'm a little biased but it's great to see hockey take off in the area and in the state too.

[esquire]

^ I've been to Texas and in terms of a sport with mass appeal, hockey is a bit of a sideshow there. It takes a distant backseat to NFL football, NCAA football, MLB, the NBA, NCAA basketball and NASCAR. I mean, it's great that kids play it there but the Stars still don't really have the cultural resonance that, say, the Oilers do in Edmonton.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I've been to Texas and in terms of a sport with mass appeal, hockey is a bit of a sideshow there. It takes a distant backseat to NFL football, NCAA football, MLB, the NBA, NCAA basketball and NASCAR. I mean, it's great that kids play it there but the Stars still don't really have the cultural resonance that, say, the Oilers do in Edmonton.

Obviously not, and nobody here is implying otherwise. My point was that twenty years ago hockey had little to no presence in Texas, Dallas, and Houston at all. In 2016, in a state consisting of 27 million people, hockey at least has some presence and is played at all levels. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this and speaks to the magnitude of success that growing that game has created. The first overall pick in 2016 is going to be from Arizona, and the US National Teams are being represented by more and more states every year. It's great.

It's why the KHL's expansion into China is a good idea, as well. Even if you only get 0.1% market share it's still 0.1% in a country of over a billion, and it's a completely untapped market for the sport (Northern China/Harbin/Qiqihar not withstanding)

[TimB09]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Obviously not, and nobody here is implying otherwise. My point was that twenty years ago hockey had little to no presence in Texas, Dallas, and Houston at all. In 2016, in a state consisting of 27 million people, hockey at least has some presence and is played at all levels. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this and speaks to the magnitude of success that growing that game has created. The first overall pick in 2016 is going to be from Arizona, and the US National Teams are being represented by more and more states every year. It's great.

It's why the KHL's expansion into China is a good idea, as well. Even if you only get 0.1% market share it's still 0.1% in a country of over a billion, and it's a completely untapped market for the sport (Northern China/Harbin/Qiqihar not withstanding)

Boom! Knocked it out of the park.

Hockey needs to start somewhere in those places. Grassroots hockey is the way to go for those places. Builds up a future fan base. Hockey will never be the main sport in those States but believe me, it's not a sideshow.
Arizona and California are starting to show the presence hockey has had as there are a lot more Californian boys and girls playing hockey then there was, say, 20 years ago. The Northern States will always have their followers but it's good to see the game expand and grow.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Obviously not, and nobody here is implying otherwise. My point was that twenty years ago hockey had little to no presence in Texas, Dallas, and Houston at all. In 2016, in a state consisting of 27 million people, hockey at least has some presence and is played at all levels. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this and speaks to the magnitude of success that growing that game has created. The first overall pick in 2016 is going to be from Arizona, and the US National Teams are being represented by more and more states every year. It's great.

It's why the KHL's expansion into China is a good idea, as well. Even if you only get 0.1% market share it's still 0.1% in a country of over a billion, and it's a completely untapped market for the sport (Northern China/Harbin/Qiqihar not withstanding)

Great, but I stand by my point that if it ever gets a team, the CFL will become a much bigger deal in Halifax than the NHL is in places like Dallas.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Arizona and California are starting to show the presence hockey has had as there are a lot more Californian boys and girls playing hockey then there was, say, 20 years ago.

Exactly - look at where the 2016 #1 overall pick (well - it's 99% certain to be Auston Matthews) was born - Scottsdale, AZ

[king10]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Exactly - look at where the 2016 #1 overall pick (well - it's 99% certain to be Auston Matthews) was born - Scottsdale, AZ

He was actually born in San Francisco and moved to Scottsdale at 2 months. Became a big Coyotes fan.

Same deal though, cali/arizona sunshine states with hockey players.

[esquire]

^ I guess the hockey correspondents must always be on vacation whenever I'm down in TX or CA... why else would there hardly be a word about hockey in the newspapers or on local TV? Not to mention the fact that you hardly ever see anyone wearing team gear.

Come on guys, kids playing a sport does not equate to mainstream popularity. I'm sure lots of awesome high school lacrosse players come out of California too.