Winnipeg Ice

[BlackDog204]

Winnipeg Ice are now 42-7-1, good for 1st overall.

In a related note, their theme song will be changed to "Eleanor Rigby" by the Beatles, since noboby cares

[blueandgoldguy]

Hopefully they at least win the WHL championship. Memorial Cup would be gravy.

We should enjoy it while it lasts. I wouldn't be surprised if the ICE are gone after this year.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Hopefully they at least win the WHL championship. Memorial Cup would be gravy.

We should enjoy it while it lasts. I wouldn't be surprised if the ICE are gone after this year.

An arena by Kenaston and Mcgillivary would have been nice to see. But unfortunately, it was not to be.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Hopefully they at least win the WHL championship. Memorial Cup would be gravy.

We should enjoy it while it lasts. I wouldn't be surprised if the ICE are gone after this year.

The irony of course is that forcing out the wealthy owners of a major market team so that it can move the team to Wenatchee is exponentially more bush league than just playing at the Wayne Fleming Arena for a couple more years.

Doing it after a WHL championship or even a successful Memorial Cup run would be even more embarrassing for the league. What kind of dummies are running that league...

PS - ICE vs Pats tonight... here's hoping the ICE keep their perfect record against Bedard intact.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by esquire

The irony of course is that forcing out the wealthy owners of a major market team so that it can move the team to Wenatchee is exponentially more bush league than just playing at the Wayne Fleming Arena for a couple more years.

Doing it after a WHL championship or even a successful Memorial Cup run would be even more embarrassing for the league. What kind of dummies are running that league...

PS - ICE vs Pats tonight... here's hoping the ICE keep their perfect record against Bedard intact.

If Gary Bettman was in charge of the WHL, the ICE would be staying put at the 1600 seat Wayne Fleming Arena for the forseeable future.

[Danny D Oh]

The attention the WHL gets from the Winnipeg media market from having a team here is more than worth the extra 2000 attendance they might get from a proper arena.

Winnipeg is also a popular spot for NHL scouts and GM's to see players. The more NHL markets they have teams in the more attractive it is as they scrap with the NCAA for top players. Savoie would have never signed to play in Cranbrook as one example.

The BC/US faction of league owners just hates having more teams on the prairies that much.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

The attention the WHL gets from the Winnipeg media market from having a team here is more than worth the extra 2000 attendance they might get from a proper arena.

Winnipeg is also a popular spot for NHL scouts and GM's to see players. The more NHL markets they have teams in the more attractive it is as they scrap with the NCAA for top players. Savoie would have never signed to play in Cranbrook as one example.

The BC/US faction of league owners just hates having more teams on the prairies that much.

I couldn't agree more. It is nuts how much importance the league places on those extra 2,000 seats vs. a continued presence in one of the league's largest markets.

I get the impression that the real issue here is the WHL has pressured all these small towns to build massive and expensive barns in recent years, and all those towns see Winnipeg playing in a small old building and it drives them nuts.

Case in point: Moose Jaw is smaller than Brandon and they have an epically large new arena that seats nearly 5,000 but it is huge, it is the biggest size you can imagine a 5,000 seat arena being. It is comically overbuilt, whenever I see games or highlights from MJ it's never more than half full. Usually more like a quarter full. So I guess they do a slow burn over there seeing the ICE play in an 1,800 seat building while they keep paying the mortgage on a massive arena that they don't actually need, they would have been fine staying in the Crushed Can. The scenario has basically played out in a pile of cities, so that amounts to a lot of pressure on the WHL to keep the scheme going.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

I couldn't agree more. It is nuts how much importance the league places on those extra 2,000 seats vs. a continued presence in one of the league's largest markets.

I get the impression that the real issue here is the WHL has pressured all these small towns to build massive and expensive barns in recent years, and all those towns see Winnipeg playing in a small old building and it drives them nuts.

Case in point: Moose Jaw is smaller than Brandon and they have an epically large new arena that seats nearly 5,000 but it is huge, it is the biggest size you can imagine a 5,000 seat arena being. It is comically overbuilt, whenever I see games or highlights from MJ it's never more than half full. Usually more like a quarter full. So I guess they do a slow burn over there seeing the ICE play in an 1,800 seat building while they keep paying the mortgage on a massive arena that they don't actually need, they would have been fine staying in the Crushed Can. The scenario has basically played out in a pile of cities, so that amounts to a lot of pressure on the WHL to keep the scheme going.

I can see that grievance for a team like Moose Jaw but for that community having that arena will mean a lot more than just the junior hockey team. They've already hosted a half dozen national curling events (huge drivers of economic activity into small cities) they never would have got in the old rink, PBR, concerts etc. I'd expect Brandon to eventually get a very similar facility.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

I can see that grievance for a team like Moose Jaw but for that community having that arena will mean a lot more than just the junior hockey team. They've already hosted a half dozen national curling events (huge drivers of economic activity into small cities) they never would have got in the old rink, PBR, concerts etc. I'd expect Brandon to eventually get a very similar facility.

Do you think it makes sense to spend tens of millions of dollars on a venue that lets you fill the hotels with Scotties fans for a week once every five years? The arena in MJ cost $61 million when it opened in 2011. Building something like that would probably cost just shy of a hundred million in today's dollars.

It's the same thing in Medicine Hat and other places. They get a few events but not really a whole lot. Taylor Swift is not coming to Lethbridge no matter how big and nice the arena is.

The WHL conned these smaller towns into building these expensive new rinks. If Brandon is smart they will keep what they currently have since it's more than enough to attract the types of events that a burg of 50,000 is likely to attract.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by esquire

Do you think it makes sense to spend tens of millions of dollars on a venue that lets you fill the hotels with Scotties fans for a week once every five years? The arena in MJ cost $61 million when it opened in 2011. Building something like that would probably cost just shy of a hundred million in today's dollars.

It's the same thing in Medicine Hat and other places. They get a few events but not really a whole lot. Taylor Swift is not coming to Lethbridge no matter how big and nice the arena is.

The WHL conned these smaller towns into building these expensive new rinks. If Brandon is smart they will keep what they currently have since it's more than enough to attract the types of events that a burg of 50,000 is likely to attract.

Great points, and Brandon already has a host of events at their rink (winter fair, Ag fair). A new rink will not bring in that many more events than it does already, and not enough to justify anywhere close of such a price tag.

[blueandgoldguy]

Brandon could always reduce seating capacity if they felt it necessary to add additional club seats and club space that the WHL deems necessary for newer WHL arenas. Contrary to popular belief, the Wheat Kings rarely sellout games usually averaging around 4,000 per game or less.

They could easily take out 500 to 1000 seats and replace them 200 - 500 club seats with some kind of lounge area I'm sure. Spend a few million to make this happen along with a few million to expand/improve locker rooms/media rooms etc. as opposed to spending over $60 million for a new 5,000 seat arena.

On the other hand, if there are major structural problems further down the road then they will likely be forced to build a new arena.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

Do you think it makes sense to spend tens of millions of dollars on a venue that lets you fill the hotels with Scotties fans for a week once every five years? The arena in MJ cost $61 million when it opened in 2011. Building something like that would probably cost just shy of a hundred million in today's dollars.

It's the same thing in Medicine Hat and other places. They get a few events but not really a whole lot. Taylor Swift is not coming to Lethbridge no matter how big and nice the arena is.

The WHL conned these smaller towns into building these expensive new rinks. If Brandon is smart they will keep what they currently have since it's more than enough to attract the types of events that a burg of 50,000 is likely to attract.

There's nothing wrong with Keystone now but it comes down to diminishing returns with these kinds of facilities between continually upgrading every few years or just building a new one that will last 20-25 years without huge capital intensive upgrades every few years. In the next 10-15 years Brandon will have that decision.

Do they make financial sense? Of course not, but they are important cultural centres for communities.

Did it make financial sense to build IGF for $200 million plus whatever it ends up being or would it make more financial sense to fold the Bombers? If they continued having profitable years it would take them about 60 years to produce enough profit to pay for the place let alone all the continual upgrades it will need over it's lifespan.

Sure you're on the right side of the argument financially but there's a lot more to it obviously. Easy to shit on what other communities have done.

[esquire]

^ Is it even an issue for Brandon? I have not heard a peep about a new rink there. They seem content with it. And when I was there for a game earlier this month, it wasn't clear to me what, if anything, it is lacking.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Is it even an issue for Brandon? I have not heard a peep about a new rink there. They seem content with it. And when I was there for a game earlier this month, it wasn't clear to me what, if anything, it is lacking.

It was an issue prior to extensive renovations in the 2007-08 range before the finally were awarded a Mem Cup. They had applied several times and had some juggernaut teams in the 90s but kept getting passed over as hosts. They also had to put in a bunch more money once they finally did win the Mem Cup bid to improve the facility for that tournament.

They've been consistently upgrading to meet standards and fix issues. I don't think I've been to that facility when it's not in a state of construction for years.

[esquire]

The more I mull this over, the more I think the best approach for the team is a renovated and expanded Wayne Fleming Arena.

This lets the U of M collaborate with 50 Below on a facility upgrade that would benefit both, as Wayne Fleming Arena is getting outdated even by USports standards. So this way both parties can contribute to the costs of major improvements without having to carry the entire cost burden on their own.

A new east wing to the arena would probably be big enough to accommodate:

-First and foremost a seating expansion of about 1,500 seats. They could then convert the existing benches to bucket seats too, so in the end there would be about 3,000 regular seats.

-Room for team facilities so that the ICE can have their own dressing room, offices, etc.

-Private suites, probably on the order of about 10 or so.

-More concession stands and washrooms.

-A second entrance/exit.

-Improvements to the existing Bisons facilities under the west stands.

If a new 4,500 seat arena would cost, let's say, around $70 million give or take, this would cost less than half that but still deliver the essentials in, once all seating is counted (premium, standing, etc.), a roughly 3,500 seat package which is likely enough to meet Winnipeg's secondary arena needs. The most important feature is that the proponents could actually get it done, in a way that benefits the university, the ICE and the broader community.

It would be interesting to know if any conversations like this are happening between 50 Below and the U of M.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

If Gary Bettman was in charge of the WHL, the ICE would be staying put at the 1600 seat Wayne Fleming Arena for the forseeable future.

If Bettman were running the WHL the ICE could play out of Gateway for the next 5+ years and that would somehow be perfectly fine.

Originally Posted by esquire

Case in point: Moose Jaw is smaller than Brandon and they have an epically large new arena that seats nearly 5,000 but it is huge, it is the biggest size you can imagine a 5,000 seat arena being. It is comically overbuilt

Moose Jaw should be on the phone daily with Bettman about when they can expect an NHL team since having an arena with that seating capacity seems to be the new standard for the NHL.

--

Jokes aside, the ICE and likely the Bison seriously need a proper home for games. Red Rive Ex has openly and publicly talked about their own plans to build an arena on their site and has events lined up to use it primarily in non-hockey months. Now if the vested parties would just get into a room and start talking. The challenge I think they could face is the Chipman rule that effectively blocks any government funding for a project like this. The best they might be able to swing is some sort of TIF zone and perhaps a partnership with Peguis who is running ASD. Peguis definitely wants to expand operations on the ASD site and an arena behind the grandstand and adjacent to the Ex grounds with access the to ASD parking lot could check a lot of boxes, especially in terms of doing things like hosting the large horse shows and live stock auctions.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

The more I mull this over, the more I think the best approach for the team is a renovated and expanded Wayne Fleming Arena.

This lets the U of M collaborate with 50 Below on a facility upgrade that would benefit both, as Wayne Fleming Arena is getting outdated even by USports standards. So this way both parties can contribute to the costs of major improvements without having to carry the entire cost burden on their own.

A new east wing to the arena would probably be big enough to accommodate:

-First and foremost a seating expansion of about 1,500 seats. They could then convert the existing benches to bucket seats too, so in the end there would be about 3,000 regular seats.

-Room for team facilities so that the ICE can have their own dressing room, offices, etc.

-Private suites, probably on the order of about 10 or so.

-More concession stands and washrooms.

-A second entrance/exit.

-Improvements to the existing Bisons facilities under the west stands.

If a new 4,500 seat arena would cost, let's say, around $70 million give or take, this would cost less than half that but still deliver the essentials in, once all seating is counted (premium, standing, etc.), a roughly 3,500 seat package which is likely enough to meet Winnipeg's secondary arena needs. The most important feature is that the proponents could actually get it done, in a way that benefits the university, the ICE and the broader community.

It would be interesting to know if any conversations like this are happening between 50 Below and the U of M.

I think that's a pretty solid plan. I think about 4,000 would be the right size. It would be great for the additional reason that the UofM could host larger indoor events like convocation ceremonies. Over my two degrees, the Frank Kennedy Gym was pretty crowded. I imagine that holding these in a more comfortable venue with upgraded seating would be a big plus.

edit: just an additional thought, judging by the site plan as it stands, how does such an upgrade take place and become feasible without large-scale disruption to events held there? It seems like part of the building would have to be torn down? What side of the building is the current rink located on?

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I think that's a pretty solid plan. I think about 4,000 would be the right size. It would be great for the additional reason that the UofM could host larger indoor events like convocation ceremonies. Over my two degrees, the Frank Kennedy Gym was pretty crowded. I imagine that holding these in a more comfortable venue with upgraded seating would be a big plus.

edit: just an additional thought, judging by the site plan as it stands, how does such an upgrade take place and become feasible without large-scale disruption to events held there? It seems like part of the building would have to be torn down? What side of the building is the current rink located on?

Convocations in Frank Kennedy? Are you dating yourself or do you mean in Investor's Group Athletic Centre? They've been held there since the Pan am Games when it was built, and holds roughly 3000 people. Upgrading the rink to 4000 people wouldn't be much of a benefit for arguably a worse layout and logistics (thawing and redoing the ice) for convocations. I've been to a handful of convocation ceremonies in IGAC and they were never at capacity and most seats can see the main stage pretty well.

Wayne Flemming arena is on the east side of the Max Bell building, the track is on the west side. They could likely expand the rink eastward to cover most of Sidney Smith, creating a full bowl seating for the arena.

I'm not a contractor or anything but I can imagine they could complete a good part of the expansion structure and spend a summer removing the wall in between the old and the new. I guess that would have to depend if the old building would need a full roof upgrade or other major structural alterations, then they would have to shut things down for a longer period of time. The Bisons hockey teams trained at The Rink when they Wayne Flemming was shut down this fall, so there are options for them.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WildCake

I'm not a contractor or anything but I can imagine they could complete a good part of the expansion structure and spend a summer removing the wall in between the old and the new. I guess that would have to depend if the old building would need a full roof upgrade or other major structural alterations, then they would have to shut things down for a longer period of time. The Bisons hockey teams trained at The Rink when they Wayne Flemming was shut down this fall, so there are options for them.

Worst case scenario the Bisons and ICE would have to find another home for a season while a potential expansion happens. If 15 months aren't enough, the teams could probably play there while the final stages of construction are under way.

I'd imagine that the Bisons could play at The Rink, but it's trickier for the ICE... maybe The Rink too just for the convenience of being where the team facilities are, but it would be super tiny, basically limited to season ticket holders only. If 50 Below splurges, maybe CLC. Otherwise it might have to be a bigger community arena like the Iceplex or St. James Civic Centre. Or some place out of town like Selkirk or Portage.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Convocations in Frank Kennedy? Are you dating yourself or do you mean in Investor's Group Athletic Centre? They've been held there since the Pan am Games when it was built, and holds roughly 3000 people. Upgrading the rink to 4000 people wouldn't be much of a benefit for arguably a worse layout and logistics (thawing and redoing the ice) for convocations. I've been to a handful of convocation ceremonies in IGAC and they were never at capacity and most seats can see the main stage pretty well.

Wayne Flemming arena is on the east side of the Max Bell building, the track is on the west side. They could likely expand the rink eastward to cover most of Sidney Smith, creating a full bowl seating for the arena.

I'm not a contractor or anything but I can imagine they could complete a good part of the expansion structure and spend a summer removing the wall in between the old and the new. I guess that would have to depend if the old building would need a full roof upgrade or other major structural alterations, then they would have to shut things down for a longer period of time. The Bisons hockey teams trained at The Rink when they Wayne Flemming was shut down this fall, so there are options for them.

Investors Group. Lol my last convocation was June 2022!

as for thawing ice and remaking - how do you think other venues do it? My understanding is that they put down rubber mats over the ice and it insulates it from whatever is going on above. then when ready to go back to ice functions, mats come off and voila! Easy peasy.

The athletic centre just has bad accoustics and is pretty uncomfortable for these ceremonies. Just a thought. Either way, having a better/bigger venue suitable for multiple types of events would be great to have on campus. Especially with the soutwood lands being developed immediately north and presumably an influx of nearby residents (even if just students), I could see it being popular for smaller sized concerts and the like, definitely a good entertainment anchor for the area in the winter months. But those might just be wishful thoughts.