Winnipeg | Forks Redevelopment | Parcel 4 - Rail Side Initiative | Proposals

[esquire]

Originally Posted by balletomane

Perhaps I seemed naive or under appreciative of the progress made downtown in my above post. I think the development downtown over the past decade or so is absolutely amazing. Winnipeg at the turn of the millennium would've believed that the city was headed for a very uncertain and desolate future, a lot needs to be done, but downtown is completely changed from what it was in 2000.

It's hard to overstate the malaise of the late 90s. There were a bunch of factors that might not have been catastrophic on their own that all happened around the same time, and contributed to a general feeling that Winnipeg was something of a doomed city. That cloud lifted a bit in the early 2000s, not coincidentally after a few years of economic growth.

That said, I don't think it was all doom and gloom at that time either. For instance, downtown Winnipeg was still a legitimate retail destination in 1998, which it no longer really is. I remember enjoying the Exchange District at that time just as people do now.

While there have been positive improvements, I'd argue that the fundamentals haven't changed and the improvements have been fairly incremental... it hasn't been the kind of wholesale change that other Canadian cities (mainly the ones larger than Winnipeg) have undergone in the last 15-20 years. Someone who hasn't set foot in the city since the 1999 Pan Am Games would likely find downtown Winnipeg pretty recognizable compared to what he or she remembered. There is still a long way to go.

[Hecate]

The only way this will "succeed" is if it's out of the price range for regular folks. So the people you want living there (young kidless students and professionals) won't be able to afford it. So you're most likely gonna end up with wealthier older people living there just like you see down the road. you'll most likely see overpriced retail locations that will be hard to fill with chains, let alone artisan local retailers and startups, so they will sit empty for a decade... Just like down the road and across the bridge. The first phase will go up without a hitch. But the following phases will be a disaster of community consultations and nimbyism. Just like down the road and accross the bridge. This will happen because of the 20 year "plan"! And the buildings will be built with no parking. So as the parking lots continue to be developed you'll here cries of where are we gonna park and our view is being destroyed. All the usual stuff. The very thing that makes the forks viable is the fact that nobody owns it. That Will be gone. It will now be a community and that will change everything. People will now believe they own it. And they will bitch about the noise at night. They will bitch about the traffic and they will have a right to! Because they live there. Would be nice to see a bunch of noisy bar patios along the tracks, so you can go from place to place carrying a drink and smoking a joint. But it will be upscale condos... so not a chance. The tracks should be the barricade for residential. Keep it on the other side... build some nice towers along Main Street on the lots at the train station, at the earls, and around the ball park. cut some tunnels under the tracks for pedestrians and put in a couple parkades, some shops and restaurants... and maybe a giant Ferris wheel. The forks should be like our own little île sainte Hélène. Uninhabited. I love the examples biguc posted and I would love if Winnipeg was like Québec. But I don't think Québec would build condos on the plains of Abraham.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by esquire

While there have been positive improvements, I'd argue that the fundamentals haven't changed and the improvements have been fairly incremental... it hasn't been the kind of wholesale change that other Canadian cities (mainly the ones larger than Winnipeg) have undergone in the last 15-20 years. Someone who hasn't set foot in the city since the 1999 Pan Am Games would likely find downtown Winnipeg pretty recognizable compared to what he or she remembered. There is still a long way to go.

One thing that has changed (dramatically) since then is the population of downtown. While some things have gone backwards in the last two decades, that's an important step that can't be understated.

[esquire]

I don't know what the population was in the 90s, but downtown went from 13,400 in 2006 to 16,000 in 2014. (I'm sure the 90s numbers would have been similar to 2006 since there wasn't much built in the 90s and early 00s.)

That's a nice increase, but barely 2,500 people isn't really what I'd classify as a dramatic change. I mean, I'm sure it has increased further since 2014, but to me dramatic change would be dozens of new buildings... highrises, lowrises and everything in between. If we had seen truly dramatic changes in population, I think downtown would look and feel much different compared to a decade ago, but I couldn't honestly say that it does.

[bryanscott]

Questions about the trains that run past this area:

What does all that development mean for the rail traffic? Will it be re-routed?

I have to say, I work in the vicinity, and the noise level at that bend in the tracks in completely unbearable. Walking form my building to my car is excruciating—some days I can't do it without sticking my fingers in my ears. This is no exaggeration either. A co-worker measured the noise that one particular train made at 107 decibels.

You couldn't pay me enough to live in proximity to that racket.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't know what the population was in the 90s, but downtown went from 13,400 in 2006 to 16,000 in 2014. (I'm sure the 90s numbers would have been similar to 2006 since there wasn't much built in the 90s and early 00s.)

That's a nice increase, but barely 2,500 people isn't really what I'd classify as a dramatic change. I mean, I'm sure it has increased further since 2014, but to me dramatic change would be dozens of new buildings... highrises, lowrises and everything in between. If we had seen truly dramatic changes in population, I think downtown would look and feel much different compared to a decade ago, but I couldn't honestly say that it does.

Exactly.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bryanscott

Questions about the trains that run past this area:

What does all that development mean for the rail traffic? Will it be re-routed?

I have to say, I work in the vicinity, and the noise level at that bend in the tracks in completely unbearable. Walking form my building to my car is excruciating—some days I can't do it without sticking my fingers in my ears. This is no exaggeration either. A co-worker measured the noise that one particular train made at 107 decibels.

You couldn't pay me enough to live in proximity to that racket.

The trains aren't going anywhere. There are no plans for rail line relocation in the foreseeable future... even if a decision was made today to start the relocation process, I can't imagine that the existing lines would be decommissioned for at least a decade. And we're nowhere near that decision being made. So 25 years, absolute minimum.

However, considering where housing is supposed to go, the sound from that bend shouldn't even be an issue. All you hear behind Union Station is the diesel engine rumble. The squealing is at the bend by the ballpark. It would be so far from the residences that I'd be surprised if any kind of additional soundproofing would even be necessary... it would probably just be a faint sound off in the distance for anyone living along Waterfront Drive/Israel Asper Way.

[bryanscott]

Originally Posted by esquire

The squealing is at the bend by the ballpark. It would be so far from the residences that I'd be surprised if any kind of additional soundproofing would even be necessary... it would probably just be a faint sound off in the distance for anyone living along Waterfront Drive/Israel Asper Way.

You're right that the ballpark is ground zero for the noise level. I'll take a walk one of these days through Parcel 4 to check out the noise level over there.... But if it's even half the level it is by the ballpark, I pity any potential buyers who like open windows and fresh air.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by bryanscott

You're right that the ballpark is ground zero for the noise level. I'll take a walk one of these days through Parcel 4 to check out the noise level over there.... But if it's even half the level it is by the ballpark, I pity any potential buyers who like open windows and fresh air.

That does seem to be one of a number of elephants that are jostling for space in this particular room.

[optimusREIM]

There should have been a couple highrise options because of the potential noise/air quality issues with the rail line right there. I doubt either of those would be issues on the 10th floor and up.

[bryanscott]

Originally Posted by Andy6

That does seem to be one of a number of elephants that are jostling for space in this particular room.

If the city were to mandate that trains slow down well before the curve, the issue could be easily resolved.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't know what the population was in the 90s, but downtown went from 13,400 in 2006 to 16,000 in 2014. (I'm sure the 90s numbers would have been similar to 2006 since there wasn't much built in the 90s and early 00s.)

That's a nice increase, but barely 2,500 people isn't really what I'd classify as a dramatic change. I mean, I'm sure it has increased further since 2014, but to me dramatic change would be dozens of new buildings... highrises, lowrises and everything in between. If we had seen truly dramatic changes in population, I think downtown would look and feel much different compared to a decade ago, but I couldn't honestly say that it does.

I don't know, I think this guy has some cred :

Brent Bellamy, chairman of CentreVenture and the creative director at Number Ten Architectural Group, said the change is cause for celebration.

"There are more people living downtown today than ever have in the history of Winnipeg," he said. "It's becoming a real neighbourhood."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...413218973.html

According to the article, downtown, after decades of stagnation, has grown faster than the city as a whole. That's why I call it progress.

[esquire]

^ Things are improving, for sure. But come on... who could really stand there with a straight face and say that downtown Winnipeg of 2017 is wildly different than downtown Winnipeg of 15 or 20 years ago? I certainly couldn't. The challenges that existed then still remain now.

Compared to the accelerated change witnessed in Canadian cities larger than Winnipeg over that timeframe, we've barely budged. Some areas within downtown have certainly changed... the Exchange being perhaps the best example. But on the whole? Barely.

[Urban recluse]

Thank you Esquire, someone who has his eyes open.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Things are improving, for sure. But come on... who could really stand there with a straight face and say that downtown Winnipeg of 2017 is wildly different than downtown Winnipeg of 15 or 20 years ago? I certainly couldn't. The challenges that existed then still remain now.

Compared to the accelerated change witnessed in Canadian cities larger than Winnipeg over that timeframe, we've barely budged. Some areas within downtown have certainly changed... the Exchange being perhaps the best example. But on the whole? Barely.

One of the challenges for Winnipeg is the massive size of its downtown. I know I spend probably 3 times the amount of time there that I used to, dining and going to functions. I probably spend more time there now than when I lived in Winnipeg.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

One of the challenges for Winnipeg is the massive size of its downtown.

I agree with you there... that may be the biggest single obstacle, in fact. I posted the maps below in another thread to illustrate the size of our downtown relative to those of larger cities. It shows how physically massive our downtown is.



In a city with a small downtown, you clean up three or four streets and you've revitalized downtown. Look at all the stories about Fargo's downtown renaissance... you're really only talking a few streets. Conversely, Winnipeg's downtown is pretty well the same size as Calgary's, a city with close to double the population and much more money to throw around.

[oftheMoon]

Beyond the bricks and mortar there is a fundamental shift in people wanting to come downtown for a variety of reasons in numbers that we didn't see 10 - 15 years ago. I find it hard hard to argue the changes that have been made which drastically improve the quality of being there.

Seems to me just MTS Centre alone bringing over 1 million people downtown annually is a bit of a change from pre 2004, no? Notwithstanding recent festival successes such as Many Fest, Nuit Blanche and Interstellar Rodeo that didn't exist 10 years ago which brings tens of thousands of people downtown each summer that were not coming downtown before. And I'm certain at least 20 - 25 restaurants/bars/coffee shops/brew pubs have been added in that time also.

Add on +/- 25% more residents than existed in the late '90s and while this is not a wildsignificance, it's clear things have changed for the better. Maybe downtown Winnipeg has not seen as much change as other cities, but downtown Winnipeg circa 2017 is a far cry from downtown Winnipeg in the early '00s.

[Urban recluse]

That is an overused excuse at this point. Yes, not every square inch of downtown will be revitalized in our lifetime, but for the downtown to not have one stretch of continuous shops, pubs, etc is embarrassing. The Old Market district in Omaha, as an example, has so many streets lined with pubs, shops, etc. City and business leaders identified their warehouse district as a place to have a variety of dining options, etc, and they made it happen. The Exchange District really has not much to offer in comparison.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

That is an overused excuse at this point. Yes, not every square inch of downtown will be revitalized in our lifetime, but for the downtown to not have one stretch of continuous shops, pubs, etc is embarrassing. The Old Market district in Omaha, as an example, has so many streets lined with pubs, shops, etc.

Yeah, in some ways this is a good measuring stick. As long as downtown Winnipeg lacks a stretch of at least two or three blocks with storefront retail, restaurants, cafes, etc. in the same way that exists in a place like Gimli, we can conclude that there is still work to be done.

Who knows, perhaps this development at The Forks will finally get us to that point....

[Urban recluse]

I sincerely hope so.