[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Ha. You mean you don't want to see the OCAD building in Halifax? Bring it on! It would look quite nice perched on the side of Citadel Hill. Or maybe something like Libeskind's ROM addition bursting out of the drumlin ?

This actually looks interesting. i would love to have this in Halifax - but not directly on the Citadel. How about down near the waterfront.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

You basically just defined what investment attraction is and made my point as to why this is important.

I work in the industry too and have worked for the Australians who do an incredible job at investment attraction via promotion of the metrics you indicated. Just look at how many consumer products have been brought international... they don't have any more creative resources than we do... they just know how to bring their products to international markets via support from government.

They don't even need to have trade offices in their convention centre developments for them to be ulitmately successful... they help spur retail spending in the areas in which they exist.

http://www.mcec.com.au/About.html
http://www.scec.com.au
http://www.cairnsconvention.com.au

I have also lived/worked in europe and see how every city there promotes themselves in terms of investment attraction. Its staggering... even the small cities (particularly in eastern europe) have strong investment attraction strategies. Their strategy isn't corny videos showing their region (see every invest in NS video I have ever seen... which is ironic that they would feature the fisheries so prominantly, as it is a sunset industry IMO), its the promotion of strong numbers such as payroll taxes.

Halifax has some of the most competitve tax regimes in Canada, but nobody knows this because its not widely made known. Saskatchewan is doing a way better job than we are.

We are too afraid of investing in our future... the ROI isn't just greater prosperity, its great internationalization which spurs future growth.

Halifax actually has many competitive advantages, we just have weak trade promotion. Our DFAIT office is pretty small compared to the size our city/region and most people working for the feds aren't Nova Scotian. NSBI is about as grassroots as it gets from what I have seen. (I have worked moreso in an international capacity.)

If we don't have proper facilities than we lose out on attracting large scale events in the international/Canadian business environments.

Prove me wrong.

I believe we might not be understanding each other.

A convention centre (call it a trade centre) does bring people to town but provides only short term benefits.

What i am talking about is having people stay here, invest and provide economic support to the region.
surely you will agrue that this helps attract people, of which i tend to agree. But the existing proposal, along with location is a more negative impact to the city longer term in my opinion.

Convention centres are very 1980-90's and if we didn't have one then i will completely agree. However we do have one that attacts the majority of conventions (small to medium). Why do we need to biggest ones? and what will make this centre out do other larger cities?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by sdm

I believe we might not be understanding each other.

A convention centre (call it a trade centre) does bring people to town but provides only short term benefits.

What i am talking about is having people stay here, invest and provide economic support to the region.
surely you will agrue that this helps attract people, of which i tend to agree. But the existing proposal, along with location is a more negative impact to the city longer term in my opinion.

Convention centres are very 1980-90's and if we didn't have one then i will completely agree. However we do have one that attacts the majority of conventions (small to medium). Why do we need to biggest ones? and what will make this centre out do other larger cities?

80's - 90's? Last time I was in europe I saw convention/trade-related developments going up in about 4 cities. As far as I know, this development won't be specifically for conventions, but for all of the WTCC services and the hotel (revenue generating). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, it isn't necessarily just "short term" benefits... the constant turnover of new people in a part of town that is currently empty lots can be outstanding. Many of these people will be looking to sample the local flavour and likely have a higher income than that of the average Haligonian.

A whole part of the economy of cities in europe is due to these sorts of developments in downtowns, especially ones that incorporate public spaces. Additionally, the people that will be working in the building will need to eat lunch... I think a residential development could potentially contribute less, especially if you have issues with the density of this proposal. ( I personally like tall buildings, especially when they are in proximity to other tall buildings... this is a skyscraper forum)

Other residential developments (Trillium, Trinity, Starfish, UG, Salter, list goes on) will be an excellent cushion around the CBD which I consider to extend as far as the herald lands and further south to the east.

Why would the bigger conferences come to Halifax? Because we have a beautiful city, strategically located close to large centres, and it has allure that would be signficantly better with more infrastructure other than the sub-par we have now. I love Halifax and find it hard to be proud of our lack of infrastructure.

I'm not debating the merit of the design of the building here, I just don't think we have a facility good enough to be competitive.... isn't that what cities are all about? competitiveness in comparison to other cities in terms of art, culture, and commerce?

Or, we could just keep the status quo and put a faux historic building on this site like the Cambridge Suites. I prefer two modern towers.

[fenwick16]

There was an article in the Chronicle Herald today:

Convention centre project might perk up whole province

By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist
Fri. Feb 26 - 4:53 AM




THE REVITALIZATION of downtown Halifax hinges on construction of a new convention centre, but the implications go far beyond Nova Scotia’s capital.

Scott Ferguson, president and CEO of Trade Centre Ltd., the provincial government agency that manages the current World Trade and Convention Centre, told me on Thursday that the benefits of having a larger facility would be important to the whole region.

He says the current convention centre isn’t adequate for the demands of professional convention planners who cater to organizations that hold meetings of about 2,000 delegates.

The Halifax centre can barely handle a convention of 1,000, Ferguson says, and as a result, his agency has been turning business away. He has calculated that Halifax has lost about 70 conferences over the past three years because the centre couldn’t accommodate the convention requirements.

"We’ve extrapolated that and figure it represents about $80 million (in direct business) and about $4 million in provincial tax," he says.

Those numbers don’t include conventions lost because planners simply didn’t consider Halifax as a location as they knew the facilities wouldn’t meet their needs, he says.

"We have hosted conferences of 1,000 but the vast majority of conferences with approximately 1,000 delegates have requirements that we can’t even meet," Ferguson says. "Some are OK with using the arena as the exhibit floor; some are OK with using halls that have multiple pillars and low ceilings — many of them aren’t."

While some people are concerned that the convention business is about to dry up, replaced by teleconferencing, convention expert Rod Cameron of Vancouver company Criterion Communications Inc. said it appears the opposite is true.

Fewer people are attending conventions to learn what’s new in a specific field, he said Thursday, but they have been replaced by people wanting to network and make connections face to face.

Based on the positive feedback he gets about Halifax as a destination, Ferguson says the city is perfect for hosting conferences. And with the proper infrastructure in place, he believes the city could once again become a popular convention destination.

For example, he says, about 7,000 international congresses are held each year and 3,000 of those could be held in Canada. International conventions are more lucrative than domestic ones, but Halifax rarely attracts international conventions now because the field is highly competitive and accustomed to very high standards.

A new, larger convention centre would become an important cog in the province’s economic strategy because it would attract influential professionals, experts and decision makers, Ferguson says.

Trade Centre Ltd. has calculated that the average convention delegate spends up to four times as much as the average tourist, engages in pre- and post-convention travel, and may plan return visits with family.

The provincial government built the current convention centre in 1984 for $40 million. Its replacement, estimated to cost about $100 million, would be part of the $300-million Nova Centre, also including hotel, office and retail space.

Private developer Rank Inc. is to build it on the former Herald property.

The most exciting thing about the Nova Centre — it’s right downtown and surrounded by infrastructure.

The project would create about 1,500 jobs during construction. When it’s completed, the current convention centre complement of 90 full-time staff and 300 part-timers would be significantly increased, Ferguson says.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Exactly. This guy knows what he is talking about.

I wonder what the economic spinoff of those 70 turned down conferences would amount to for local businesses?

I find that everybody arguing against this is doing so with a hidden agenda against tall buildings and this has nothing to do with the benefits.

If you were against the previous midtown proposal you are probably against this...

The "view" (which currently is of alot of ugly roof equipment I might add) isn't worth not more having the buildings there generating activity. If this can be done through a public/private partnership, I say bring it on.

Its all on Dexter at this point, I hope he can be an NDPer that isn't swayed by a rediculous heritage members of his party who contradict their own views on the environment by contributing to low density.

How are all of these groups against this when they seemingly contradict eachother? Heritage homes (which I respect and adore) are some of the worst energy consumers in the city. Also, being against tall buildings is actually anti-environment which has been evidenced through the urban expansion of Halifax. There are cities with higher populations that have smaller footprints.

[fenwick16]

I have to agree with you worldlyhaligonian.

The purpose of a convention centre is to get people to come to Halifax and I think that first time visitors will be pleasantly surprised. (This has been the case with first time visitors from the Toronto area that I have known). Even though the convention/trade centre might not generate enough direct revenue to justify the expense (or maybe it will) it has the potential of getting first time visitors to come to Halifax and then some of them will return and in some cases rich developers and business owners will even invest in the Halifax area. In my opinion this is the biggest potential for a new convention/trade centre.

I have been fortunate enough to attend several conventions throughout North America and most are cities that I would not have gone to other than to attend the convention. I have had some pleasant surprises - for example, Baltimore is an interesting city that has gone through a transformation similar to Halifax over the past few decades. San Francisco is a fantastic city but that is no surprise. Halifax pulls way above its size.

For proof, check out these reviews at virtualtourist.com: http://members.virtualtourist.com/vt/z/2/ddcce/

And here is a great photo tour by Andy6: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=154310

Another one by Isaidso: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=724898

And none of these people seem to hate the tall buildings.

I really hope that Halifax will build a suitable stadium in the near future. This will have a similar effect to the convention/trade centre by giving Halifax the capability to host national and international events. Like a convention/trade centre, it will bring first time visitors to the city. It will also be an instrument in promoting Halifax throughout the country. I hope that Halifax area residents will eventually stop thinking of a suitable stadium as a unnecessary expense and see it in the same light as a convention centre.

[Keith P.]

I can add that, as someone who has been involved with events and bringing conventions here on occasion, that the existing WTCC is simply obsolete. It is too small for some of the things I have been involved with, and is becoming dated in terms of facilities and features. The only alternative is the Cunard center and while they do a decent job of taking what amounts to a warehouse building and turning it into an events venue, it is lacking in many areas and is in a location that is not convenient. A new facility would be a boost to the downtown and the economy.

That "savetheview" website referenced earlier is simply infuriating and a collection of false information.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I find that everybody arguing against this is doing so with a hidden agenda against tall buildings and this has nothing to do with the benefits.

If you were against the previous midtown proposal you are probably against this...

It's not just height. The biggest problem with this proposal, whether it's five stories, eight stories or 18 stories are the podiums that each take up an entire block. Planarchy explained this problem quite well, better than I can, but buildings with footprints this big are very awkward on Halifax's hills - take a look at the Prince George or Cambridge Suits. Sure you can wrap some retail around the base of some streets but you're not really solving the problem just hiding it a bit.

The benefits of this type of building happen at best a few times a week, when a convention or event is happening. What does a convention centre contribute to the activity on streets around it when not in use - very little. The area already has one use, the Metro Centre, that already functions like this. It only brings people into town on game nights. This area doesn't need more concentrated big draws it needs residents.

I'm not entirely against a convention centre, I'm against a convention centre on this site. This site was the default easy choice, not the right choice. If this gets built its going to be there for fifty years, we should have taken a real look at alternative sites.

[fenwick16]

The city is made up of various types of buildings and although I agree that the downtown core could use more residential construction that is not what is being proposed. This is a convention centre not residential. No one has proposed residential for that site and a low rise building is not required there.

I like tall buildings like Purdy's Wharf and 1801 Hollis Street (and I think most people do). I am 51 years old and despite the opinion that older people dislike tall buildings, I can say for a fact that based on the people that I have known who are my age and older, it simply is not true (it is only a minority that dislike tall buildings). Even if the argument is that it should be resident, then why not have a well designed 30 storey residential building (other than the viewplanes bylaws which is just an artificial barrier to development that never should have been adopted)? I think some people are saying that a building like a convention centre and ones like 1801 Hollis are a blank wall but you can't propose retail at ground level if the downtown core cannot support it.

Although my opinion regarding heritage buildings has changed over the years - as I grew older, I began to see the importance of keeping heritage buildings - I have not started to dislike tall buildings only poorly designed buildings.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

It's not just height. The biggest problem with this proposal, whether it's five stories, eight stories or 18 stories are the podiums that each take up an entire block. Planarchy explained this problem quite well, better than I can, but buildings with footprints this big are very awkward on Halifax's hills - take a look at the Prince George or Cambridge Suits. Sure you can wrap some retail around the base of some streets but you're not really solving the problem just hiding it a bit.

The benefits of this type of building happen at best a few times a week, when a convention or event is happening. What does a convention centre contribute to the activity on streets around it when not in use - very little. The area already has one use, the Metro Centre, that already functions like this. It only brings people into town on game nights. This area doesn't need more concentrated big draws it needs residents.

I'm not entirely against a convention centre, I'm against a convention centre on this site. This site was the default easy choice, not the right choice. If this gets built its going to be there for fifty years, we should have taken a real look at alternative sites.

Very well said.

A convention centre would be nice, but it won't save the downtown in my opinion.

I rather this be built in an alternate location, as if you were to look from the water towards this development it would dominate the downtown and will cast a very large shadow towards the water as it blocks the sun setting in the west. Don't take this as me against tall building, i am pro that. Just slender towers are better, not a big blockly one like that of which is proposed.

The centre, if everyone concludes we need one, should have been built down along the waterfront.

I for one am still for seeing the existing trade centre expanded into the metro centre, and then have a new stadium built. I am fearful that if a new one comes on line that we will have to contend with the operation shortfall of the old complex. Coupled with this the requirements for a new arena/stadium and well we simply can't afford to do everything.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by sdm

Very well said.
I for one am still for seeing the existing trade centre expanded into the metro centre, and then have a new stadium built. I am fearful that if a new one comes on line that we will have to contend with the operation shortfall of the old complex. Coupled with this the requirements for a new arena/stadium and well we simply can't afford to do everything.

I don't disagree with this position. There seems to be some logic in doing it, in fact. Unfortunately nobody is proposing such a project. Is the Herald/Midtown block big enough for a new arena (not stadium, I assume you meant arena)? I would think so but dunno for certain.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

It's not just height. The biggest problem with this proposal, whether it's five stories, eight stories or 18 stories are the podiums that each take up an entire block. Planarchy explained this problem quite well, better than I can, but buildings with footprints this big are very awkward on Halifax's hills - take a look at the Prince George or Cambridge Suits. Sure you can wrap some retail around the base of some streets but you're not really solving the problem just hiding it a bit.

The benefits of this type of building happen at best a few times a week, when a convention or event is happening. What does a convention centre contribute to the activity on streets around it when not in use - very little. The area already has one use, the Metro Centre, that already functions like this. It only brings people into town on game nights. This area doesn't need more concentrated big draws it needs residents.

I'm not entirely against a convention centre, I'm against a convention centre on this site. This site was the default easy choice, not the right choice. If this gets built its going to be there for fifty years, we should have taken a real look at alternative sites.

Couldn't agree more! We should have used the Convention Centre to redo something that otherwise wouldn't happen like the Cogswell. It's a missed opportunity to do something strategic with government money. As Planarchy said, a fine grain of mid-rises on these blocks with residential that keeps the existing street grid would be a lot better. From the few comments to the media from months ago, Rank does have a Plan B which involves a mix of uses (maybe residential). Being against this project for me isn't about being against the Convention Centre, it's about being against it in this location which has been my feeling ever since Rank was announced as the winner.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Couldn't agree more! We should have used the Convention Centre to redo something that otherwise wouldn't happen like the Cogswell. It's a missed opportunity to do something strategic with government money.

Exactly. This is an opportunity to make a strategic or tactical intervention in the city - it is an investment in the future. To drop it into the confines of this site would be a wasted opportunity. The proposed program does not match the potential and limitations of the site. Huge opportunity for this in Pier 21 area - this is not as remote as some people seem to think it is - or cogwell area.

As Worldly discussed about convention centres in Europe as a trigger for urban development, etc. - this is true, but this is often accomplished by building in areas of future expansion - WTCC in Amsterdam along the south axis is a great example, or in reclaimed industrial dockland areas - Hafencity in Hamburg is a good example of this.

This project must be given the respect it deserves - and it must be used in a way that maximizes its potential as far as economic spin-offs, and as a way to structure and direct future urban growth.

[fenwick16]

I wonder how many are strongly opposed to this project versus how many feel it isn't an ideal project. An ideal project will vary greatly from person to person. My idea of an ideal project would be a combination stadium/convention centre with 100,000 square feet of exhibition space ( the approximate size of a football field) with a retractable roof. If such a development were proposed then the Rank site would not be large enough. However, I know that this isn't going to be built due to the cost. The Cogswell interchange project likely wasn't chosen because of the cost of tearing down the interchange.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by planarchy

As Worldly discussed about convention centres in Europe as a trigger for urban development, etc. - this is true, but this is often accomplished by building in areas of future expansion - WTCC in Amsterdam along the south axis is a great example, or in reclaimed industrial dockland areas - Hafencity in Hamburg is a good example of this.

Those are two that I was indirectly referring to! Especially the WTC in Amsterdam has revitalized a previously dead area.

I don't think the super block is going to be an issue because its being designed differently than other buildings in the past. It will have more rooftop spaces and the location is perfect for people from out of town... its in the heart of everything.

I love the atrium concept. I don't really like the way the podiums are faux heritage and I would like to see the whole thing done in glass... but I don't really have an issue with the composition... I would rather have high rise in there regardless.

I totally would love to see slender towers, but the way it is organized won't likley be as bad as it is made out to be.

Ultimately, what scares me is more wasted land downtown... I think squandering this opportunity makes the opportunity cost of not doing other things even greater.

Its better than nothing and I think it has a real chance to provide serious economic benefts.

If they missed out on 70 conventions in the last year (during a recession) than I think its plausible that this centre could host a convention a week on average in perpetuity.

[DigitalNinja]

I'd like to see this go through as is. I think it is something that we really need and there shouldn't be any argument about it. Not everything can be designed by a great architect as pointed out before. I think that most people should support this, the current convention center is to small, and I think the old one should eventually be torn down and used to extend the stadium.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

I'd like to see this go through as is. I think it is something that we really need and there shouldn't be any argument about it. Not everything can be designed by a great architect as pointed out before. I think that most people should support this, the current convention center is to small, and I think the old one should eventually be torn down and used to extend the stadium.

Thinking like this is the problem.

Attention to aesthetic design must be considered just as important as engineering design. This isn't about getting a starachitect to design this - and they certainly don't always produce the best work - often they project their ego on place rather than reflect the context of the place itself. This about doing something well and moving beyond mediocrity in this city. Design competitions are used constantly in Europe for almost any public building being constructed. This is a guaranteed win. You get great ideas for minimal cost (prize money - and there are lost of desperate architects around the globe willing to put in long hours for even minimal prizes). It is also a great exercise in seeing how outsiders, as well as locals, interpret Halifax.

I completely agree that this can be good for the city and I support the project and program. But I don't support the short-sighted approach, the developer-led design process for a building partially funded by govn't, and the complete lack of a broader, long-term development strategy that must accompany an urban project of this scale.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by steve61

3 photos from this morning's paper. The first two are a bit redundant; just larger versions of the ones I posted yesterday. The third is a new angle with a street level view of the arch.

I think that this was designed by a good architect. When I look at it, I think it looks great. I have been to many conventions centres throughout North America and this would rank near the top in terms of aesthetics.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Looks great!


F%#$ ALL YOU NIMBY / HERITAGE HATERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[haligonia]

I agree with fenwick. The design is good, I mean, I've seen better, but I have also seen much, much worse. I think that this project will be great for downtown. Sure, a convention centre doesn't create as much activity as a residential building, but it definatly creates more activity than a warehouse with glass block and garage doors at street level and a butt-ugly parking lot.