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  #481  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 1:32 AM
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Historians and architects alike love to say things like 'We couldn't build the Empire State Building again if we tried,' not because it's beyond the physical and fiscal capabilities of today's world, but because it'd be impossible to float a proposal for such a tall building without getting it ripped to shreds by NIMBY groups with far too much power.
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  #482  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 2:27 AM
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They don't have any more power than you or me. The difference between them and us is that they show up for those public meetings and hearings. They call, write and generally complain to their representatives to get them to put pressure on the city agencies to listen to them.

Look at the LPC hearing today, there was just ONE person from the forums that was there, while many more NIMBYs showed up.

Here's what that one forumer (from WNY) had to say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
By the time I left only Childs had spoken in favor.

But there had only been 4 speakers at that time.

Two testified in opposition (CB Mendes guy and a Liz Kreuger stand in). They both got applause from a contingent at the back of the room.

Scott Stringer's stand in testified that Stringer is ".... looking for additional info regarding land use and zoning but that is an issue for City Planning not LPC" or some similar political BS -- essentially saying "I'm-not-taking-a-real-stand".

They let the politicians / big wigs speak before the citizens.

Hopefully one David Childs = 10 "community" whiners
That "contingent from the back of the room" could have been made up of supporters but instead it was comprised mostly of NIMBYs. Guess what impression the LPC will get of the public's support of this project? Even if the public was for this proposal, they wouldn't have known it.
     
     
  #483  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
That "contingent from the back of the room" could have been made up of supporters but instead it was comprised mostly of NIMBYs. Guess what impression the LPC will get of the public's support of this project? Even if the public was for this proposal, they wouldn't have known it.
The contingent from the back of the room has made this issue a matter of life and death. I'm sure other people had other things to do, but the LPC isn't going to make a determination based on who showed up and who didn't. It's not simply a matter of who supports it and who doesn't.
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  #484  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 11:33 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/09/ny...l?ref=nyregion

Planned Tower Near MoMA Widely Criticized at Hearing

By COLIN MOYNIHAN
April 9, 2008

Neighbors, public officials and preservationists were among the people who spoke out on Tuesday night against a proposal to build a skyscraper in Midtown that, at 1,155 feet, would be about 100 feet taller than the Chrysler Building.

At a hearing held by the Landmarks Preservation Commission, some opponents said the height and composition of the building would prevent it from harmoniously fitting into its surroundings. Others said they feared that the tower would reduce the access to light and air in the neighborhood and contribute to street and sidewalk congestion.

The building, known as Tower Verre, was designed by the award-winning French architect Jean Nouvel. It would rise at 53 West 53rd Street and include gallery space for the Museum of Modern Art. Its construction would involve the transfer of air rights from St. Thomas Episcopal Church, on Fifth Avenue at 53rd Street, and the University Club, at 1 West 54th Street.

The project requires the approval of the landmarks commission because both the church, a French Gothic structure, and the club, designed by McKim, Mead & White, are landmarks. A month ago, Community Board 5, which represents the area, voted to urge the commission to reject the transfer of air rights and block the construction of what the board called an “eccentric asymmetrical tower.”

The structure would be 75 stories high and resemble a narrow, partly transparent spire crisscrossed by metal girders with steep setbacks pitched at different angles. In addition to museum space, it would include apartments and a hotel. Mr. Nouvel, who won the 2008 Pritzker Architecture Prize, told the commissioners that he had designed the building to complement its surroundings and to stand out as a dynamic work that would “create a kind of signal you can read in the skyline.”

But State Senator Liz Krueger, in a statement that was entered into the record, said the tower “would be grossly out of scale with the other buildings in the area” and would “overwhelm the area’s infrastructure and services.”

The proposal involves the transfer of about 275,000 square feet of air rights from St. Thomas Church and an additional 136,000 square feet from the University Club. Representatives from both said the sale of the air rights would finance the upkeep of their buildings.

About 100 people attended the hearing, held at the preservation commission’s downtown offices, and about 50 signed up to speak. By the time that half of them had spoken, the tally was leaning heavily against the project.

Michael Vann, an architecture student at Pratt Institute, called the tower “a celebration of ingenuity, imagination, creativity, originality and vision.”

But a few minutes later, Chris McNally, a construction manager who lives on West 54th Street, described it as “a sharp spire stabbed into the heart of the neighborhood.”

A spokeswoman for the landmarks commission, Lisi de Bourbon, said the commissioners would consider the application and announce a decision at a future public meeting.

If they approve the transfer of the air rights, the matter will be referred to the Department of City Planning for approval. The project does not require permission from the City Council, but it can be blocked by council members.
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  #485  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
The proposal involves the transfer of about 275,000 square feet of air rights from St. Thomas Church and an additional 136,000 square feet from the University Club. Representatives from both said the sale of the air rights would finance the upkeep of their buildings.
That's one of the things that really disappointing about this - when people allow their ideology to blind them to the fact that there's already a huge amount of pedestrian traffic on this street (it can probably compete with Times Square in that respect when it comes to MoMA's Free Fridays) as well as the fact that this building's construction would help preserve two beautiful local landmarks through the air rights sale (and God knows we need to take care of what remaining McKim, Mead, and White buildings we have).
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  #486  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 4:18 PM
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So it basically still doesn't look good.
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  #487  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 5:20 PM
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  #488  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
The contingent from the back of the room has made this issue a matter of life and death.
I don't think just showing up for a couple of hours is life and death. If you feel strongly about something, then you make some effort to see it through.

Now that person might not be you but there are others here that feel strongly about this proposal but yet don't even bother doing just a little other complain about NIMBY this NIMBY that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
I'm sure other people had other things to do,
We all do and I'm pretty sure the NIMBYs do too but at least they are willing to do something besides talking about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
but the LPC isn't going to make a determination based on who showed up and who didn't. It's not simply a matter of who supports it and who doesn't.
Yes, it is. Often times, many of these development-landmarks related issues can go either way and these commissioners are human. They can be swayed by overwhelming public opinion. They don't want to be considered the bad guys in front of a lot of people. No one wants to be unpopular.

If you follow enough of the LPC cases, then you know that their decisions tend lean toward to appeasing the community (if there should be opposition). There are plenty of other examples over the years of LPC caving into public opinion but I will use a few examples that come to mind.


Quote:
Chelsea Opponents Stymie Seminary Development Plan


By ANNIE KARNI
Special to the Sun
April 3, 2007

The General Theological Seminary's plan to build a 15-story condominium development on its collegelike campus in Chelsea has been foiled by local opposition, seminary leaders said yesterday.

Church officials said they sought to build the 151-foot-tall glass apartment tower to help pay for $21 million of badly needed restoration to the seminary's Gothic buildings that date back to the 1880s, but decided to withdraw the plan when they realized they were fighting a losing battle.

"It's a big defeat," the executive vice president of the General Theological Seminary, Maureen Burnley, said during an interview yesterday. "The seminary's preservation plan was killed by people who call themselves preservationists."

Chelsea residents said they recoiled at the proposed apartment tower because it would have clashed with the historic character of their neighborhood, where city zoning regulations cap building heights at 75 feet.

The seminary, which occupies a full city block between 20th and 21st streets and Ninth and Tenth avenues, resembles a college quad in a New England town. The grounds are covered by sycamore trees and American elms that date back about 150 years. Church officials said that if the institution does not raise preservation money soon, it could be forced to leave Chelsea.

Seminary officials said they would present a "compromise plan" to their board next month. They described the plan as a scaled-back redevelopment scheme that would chop the rejected tower in half, leaving a seven-story mixed-use residential building on Ninth Avenue, and a five-story administration building on 20th Street.

The buildings would require landmarks approval or a special permit to waive the 75-foot height limitation for buildings in the neighborhood. Any structure that would exceed the neighborhood's height cap requires approval by the Landmarks Preservation Commission, as well as the City Planning Commission — a process that could take about two years, according to Ms. Burnley. She said the seminary did not have that much time to wait, as significant repairs are "absolutely critical" and construction costs in Manhattan are rapidly rising.


Here's another where they shaved off 12 feet off a proposal (yes, 12 feet!) because the community thought it was 12 feet too tall.

Quote:
Luxe hotel coming to West Village



145 Perry Street, site of planned hotel


By Catherine Contiguglia
Updated On 04/01/08 at 09:51AM

Plans for a seven-story, 93-unit luxury hotel and restaurant are moving ahead in the Greenwich Village Historic District after gaining approval from the Landmarks Preservation Commission last week.

The approval follows months of debate over replacing the existing 24-foot stucco building at 145 Perry Street in the West Village, used as a freight loading station since 1938. Pressure from community organizations and officials, including state Sen. Thomas Duane, led to the proposed hotel's height being reduced from 90 feet to 78 feet.

The hotel is designed by architect Morris Adjmi and will be developed by Scott Sabbagh, who built the Urban Glass House on Spring Street, architect Philip Johnson's final project. Construction at 145 Perry Street is slated to begin in about six months and a fall 2009 opening is expected, Adjmi said.

The hotel will have a below-grade restaurant and bar and six stories of rooms topped by a penthouse with a private terrace. The rooms and suites will start at about $500 a night, and amenities will include a spa, Sabbagh said.

Adjmi said the West Village lacks hotels.

"I think there's a shortage of great places to stay in the West Village," Adjmi said. "I think it's one of the best neighborhoods in the city. It's going to be a low-key luxury hotel -- a great place for people to come who want to visit downtown. Architecturally, I think it blends right in and stands out at the same time."

Although preservationists see the hotel's height reduction as an improvement, they remain concerned that the structure is out of character for the neighborhood, and that it will increase traffic and noise. The property is already zoned commercial, so the project only needs Department of Buildings permits to proceed.

"We would have liked to see greater changes," said Andrew Berman, executive director of the Greenwich Village Society for Historical Preservation. He added that "there's been some anxiety among neighbors about the potential of hotel use. I think people are worried about traffic, noise, cabs, deliveries – all sorts of things like that."

© 2008 The Real Deal
     
     
  #489  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2008, 8:05 PM
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12 feet, i laugh me dead
     
     
  #490  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2008, 9:21 PM
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http://curbed.com/archives/2008/04/0...ery.php?page=2

MoMA Mia! Starring Jean Nouvel, David Childs & the Peanut Gallery



Jean Nouvel educates the proletariat on how to eat cereal in a multi-million-dollar apartment.


Wednesday, April 9, 2008, by Joey


As reported yesterday, Pritzker Prize-winning French starchitect Jean Nouvel was forced to defend his plan for a dazzling and momentous Midtown skyscraper in front of a crowd of ornery locals waiting to savage him and his work.

Such is the state of development in New York in 2008, but Nouvel took it all in stride. His attendance at the Landmarks Preservation Commission hearing—which heard arguments for and against the transfer of air rights from a couple of local landmarks to the developers of Nouvel's 53 West 53rd Street—was not a surprise, given the mounting community opposition to the so-called MoMA Tower (which the Times reports is now called Tower Verre). What was a surprise, however, was Nouvel bringing in starchitecture frat brother David Childs to speak on his behalf. That's two starchitects for the price of none, people! Curbed had two correspondents seated in the crowd...


The hearing started way late, while the Commission dealt with an illegal awning in Hamilton Heights. Nouvel entered the hearing room during testimony for that item, and the heads of each and every member of LPC turned and followed him, all with admiration and wonder in their eyes. Talk about starchitect fuckers! Nouvel sat quietly, seemingly listening intently to the discussion regarding the ugly improper awning.

Nouvel gave a great presentation, with much discussion of set backs and the evolution of the New York skyscraper. He made pointed reference to Hugh Ferriss. A terrific moment was when he was describing the location of the site and opted for the French for our saying "bird's eye view."

Nouvel owned the room with his calm, soft-spoken voice (and sensual handling of the laser pointer) as he explained his idea of "contextuality," which is to create "the missing piece of the puzzle," and in the case of 53rd Street, that piece is apparently a sharp needle-hotel/condo/museum space jutting 75 stories into the sky. He explained the needle design as a study in contrasts to the surrounding rectangle structures, and went so far as to suggest that the presence of the building would create more "lightness" to the area than without. A visibly upset lady in the crowd responded with some disapproving clucking.

Surprise guest was David Childs, who spoke in praise of both Nouvel and his scheme.

St. Thomas Church and the University Club would get their upkeep and maintenance covered through perpetuity, so their proponents (especially from St. Thomas) came out strong for the approval, but it was really the neighborhood residents that came looking for a fight. With the exception of Liz Krueger, the elected officials' statements generally supported the idea of landmark upkeep, and suggested their concerns with the new building may be better dealt with at a city planning level, also suggesting that this fight isn't close to over for the supporters of CB 5's vote to disapprove the transfer.

Things looked bleak in the public testimony, as Nouvel gamely sat through hours of traffic, safety, and neighborhood-harmony concerns, which ranged from the near-apologetic to the downright taunting.

Complaints ranged from the creation of unsafe traffic congestion for emergency vehicles and disharmony in the architecture, some going so far as to tell Jean Nouvel that his building wasn't just big, but also ugly. To his face! There may have been more detractors, but Nouvel was not without his supporters, which were mainly various members of the clergy, trustees from the MoMA and the Folk Art Museum, and one really passionate architecture student in sweat pants. It will be interesting to see how the Commission votes.



David Childs, in one of the few moments he wasn't checking his BlackBerry.




"Trump Soho gets built no problem, but you have a problem with this?"




Breaking down his mixed-use phallus.




You, in the front row there. Don't you understand I have a Pritzker Prize?"




That low-rise little neighborhood called Midtown where 53 West 53rd Street would rise.




A complicated way of saying "we need this money!"




"Once this gets built, this will be the entrance that none of you complainers will be allowed into."
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  #491  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2008, 11:52 PM
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This picture truly does make all the complaints seem stupid:

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  #492  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 12:15 AM
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This picture truly does make all the complaints seem stupid:

but its a lowrise neighborhood! no skyscrapers for at least 30' in any direction.
     
     
  #493  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 1:42 AM
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^^Except for the one next to it...
     
     
  #494  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 1:47 AM
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Nouvel looks a little like Dr.Evil.
     
     
  #495  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 2:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale View Post
Nouvel looks a little like Dr.Evil.
But it seems he's got quite a mouth on him.

Zerton, NIMBYs are just plain idiots, unfortunately, idiots still breed in this world. Science has not found a way to eradicate them yet.
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  #496  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 2:27 AM
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Originally Posted by StatenIslander237 View Post
But it seems he's got quite a mouth on him.
Pssst.....those 'quotes' are from curbed....
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  #497  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 2:29 AM
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"Somebody throw me a frickin' BONE!"

-- Jean Nouvel, facing hostile crowd --
     
     
  #498  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 6:18 AM
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Pssst.....those 'quotes' are from curbed....
Ahh...that's actually mildly disappointing. I would've loved a powerhouse tower from a wise-ass architect. Oh well, I'll take the powerhouse tower by itself just the same.

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Originally Posted by Dale View Post
"Somebody throw me a frickin' BONE!"

-- Jean Nouvel, facing hostile crowd --
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  #499  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 12:38 PM
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Why didnt someone tell me this was a lowrise neighborhood.....im the boss, need the info
     
     
  #500  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2008, 4:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StatenIslander237 View Post
But it seems he's got quite a mouth on him.

Zerton, NIMBYs are just plain idiots, unfortunately, idiots still breed in this world. Science has not found a way to eradicate them yet.
And its an unfortunate fact that stupid people breed more often than intelligent ones, because they are stupid. So this problem will continue.
     
     
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