The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

It's my understanding that there is supposed to be a third middle unit when it goes into service.

I think you are correct.

[ssiguy]

I don't understand why Lakeshore could not have very frequent service and not have to worry about freight. I thought GO now owns 100% of the Lakeshore line in Toronto.

Electrification would be nice but the 2 priorities for that should be Lakeshore and Georgetown with Barrie the absolute last electrification priority.

I think GO should go with the 2 tier system with George/Lakeshore the first switch overs to RER. Have them have no stops at all in Toronto except Union and anyone wanting to go elsewhere should transfer at Ajax/Miss/Bram RER station...........effectively making those 3 routes subways with 5-7 minute frequencies.

By the way, how long are those UPX trains in meters...they look awfully small.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by vegeta_skyline

No problem but... saying its double is not accurate. The Lakeshore West line within Toronto has been grade separated for a very long time, several decades in fact, none of those bridges are new. Same goes for the Milton line which was grade separated through Toronto except for that one crossing at Strachan. But yes, its true that only now can you actually say that its enter length through Toronto (11.8 miles) is completely grade separated. Unfortunately that doesn't mean squat. As anyone who follows the future plans would know, CP has balked at any additional GO service on the line as is. They will need 2 more tracks through most of the corridor, including significant portions in Toronto, before we will see any kind of significant service increases.

So the actual amount of new & usable grade separated track within Toronto is only 13.5 miles. Thanks entirely to the Georgetown south project, which has made the Weston sub grade separated from mile 0 until mile 15.27(mile 13.5 is the border with Mississauga). Yes thats great but its only 13.5, that's not double the current subway system which is 42.4 miles long.

On top of that calling them subway lines is a bit of a stretch too. They're still limited by the signal system and track characteristics, though the system as is can probably achieve 10 min frequencies on lines that have two track dedicated to a local service and infrequent freight movements. However train spacing gets longer during rush hour, just when you need it the most because of much longer loading/unloading times and slower acceleration times due to heavier trains from having more passengers. Now if you consider 15 min spacing to be subway like then that's not a problem even at the most bottled up and busiest sections(local, express+yard movements crossing over multiple tracks) and the Lakeshore West and Kitchener lines within Toronto could do that. Though I don't really see the practicality of a 15 min LW service that terminates at *edit Mimico, LB isn't a convenient place for trains to turn around and there aren't enough tracks. The Weston sub through Troonto is a bit different but lets not rehash that, I think everyone knows you argument there.

I know that some industries continue to use imperial measurements, but they really shouldn't. It makes it so hard for us Canadians to have any sense of measurement - can we just finish the damn switchover already, and oust the curmudgeonly old men who have preserved it so, so far beyond its time? Australia switched over their train system, as well as every other application, and now everyone there actually has an innate sense of what a metre and a kilogram mean.

[Innsertnamehere]

Its pretty necessary in the rail industry as the border essentially doesn't exist in terms of freight movement and it would do nothing but create dangerous situations if rail lines had to switch back and forth.

[1overcosc]

Then get the Americans to adopt kilometers. Its about goddamn time they adopted the metric system like everybody else.

Get China, the EU, India, Brazil, Russia.. basically everybody... to demand the Americans metricate. Make real threats and they'll do it.

[vegeta_skyline]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Then get the Americans to adopt kilometers. Its about goddamn time they adopted the metric system like everybody else.

Get China, the EU, India, Brazil, Russia.. basically everybody... to demand the Americans metricate. Make real threats and they'll do it.

C'mon your not aren't actually serious are you?

Make real threats? Canada, threatening the US? Over their use of the imperial system?
And why would China, the EU, India, Brazil, Russia etc. care about what measurement system the US uses? Canada is certainly not going to be able to rally any country onto its side for such a trivial matter. Nor is such a matter even on the governments agenda, AFAIK. And does anyone really think pressuring the US, the most prideful country in the world, is actually going to work? Or that the US would actually give a damn what a country like Russia whats from it these days? No, the only country in the world this actually effects in any significant way is Canada. But really, it's not like there's some complicated math formula needed to convert miles in kilometers. Just pull out a calculator, which I presume everyone has these days most likely on their cell phones and multiple by 1.61 or even just 1.6. For technical standards they would of course use the exact number 1 mile = to 1.609344 km.

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I know that some industries continue to use imperial measurements, but they really shouldn't. It makes it so hard for us Canadians to have any sense of measurement - can we just finish the damn switchover already, and oust the curmudgeonly old men who have preserved it so, so far beyond its time? Australia switched over their train system, as well as every other application, and now everyone there actually has an innate sense of what a metre and a kilogram mean.

The railroad can't just switch over to metric, not only is US interoperability important but there are things that are hard wired in the field based on the current system. Furthermore if the system were to sudden change to metric, it would be a disaster. Everyone's sense of where they are would be thrown into chaos. And slowly converting would be just as bad. There's so many numbers to keep track as is, throw in a separate system with the exact same numbers and there are going to be errors. To be more blunt, there will be accidents and fatalities. Besides EVERYBODY I've ever worked with is somehow seemingly able to work with miles. It's not a language barrier people. One can easily adapt to a different measurement system.

In any case why does it even bother people that these industry's use imperial? I just don't get it, you guys do realize that what measurement some company that you have no connection to uses, has absolutely no impact on your life right? It's almost as if people think that just because Canada has adopted the metric system it should be a crime to still use imperial in this country.

Seriously, just pull out your phone and multiple by 1.6, no really... believe me, its that easy guys.

[1overcosc]

There are few things in this world that I'm truly irrational about, and measurement is one of them. I'm a metric freak. I've even been known to refuse to rent an apartment because it has a fahrenheit thermostat and not a celsius one. Call me crazy, I'm not offended. I mean, don't we all that one stupid obsession?

[Innsertnamehere]

My friends think I'm crazy as I measure water temperature in celcius. But I'm not that crazy.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There are few things in this world that I'm truly irrational about, and measurement is one of them. I'm a metric freak. I've even been known to refuse to rent an apartment because it has a fahrenheit thermostat and not a celsius one. Call me crazy, I'm not offended. I mean, don't we all that one stupid obsession?

I'd hate to see you at Loblaw's, picking up the 355ml cans of soda pop and the 398ml cans of vegetables.....

[1overcosc]

Not to mention my personal recipe book. It contains things like "preheat the oven to 175C, add 250ml of flour". I'm weird

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There are few things in this world that I'm truly irrational about, and measurement is one of them. I'm a metric freak. I've even been known to refuse to rent an apartment because it has a fahrenheit thermostat and not a celsius one. Call me crazy, I'm not offended. I mean, don't we all that one stupid obsession?

I had to look up online how to change my thermostat from fahrenheit to celsius. It's a convoluted code - kind of like getting extra lives in a Nintendo game.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Not to mention my personal recipe book. It contains things like "preheat the oven to 175C, add 250ml of flour". I'm weird

We have a weird and confusing hybrid of metric and imperial in Canada. I understand cups but I have no idea what an ounce is - grams are what make sense.

I did some Youtubing while figuring out a DIY project and it turns out that contractors in the rest of the world use millimetres instead of inches. If you mention metric to a contractor here they look at you like you had two heads. It honestly seems so much easier.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I generally use the terms 'BRT-lite' or 'basic BRT' for express buses if they have some sort of traffic bypassing system in place (like signal priority or lanes). That level of bypassing infrastructure gives it a leg up from a simple express bus, IMO. Having a separate branding, and being a spine of the transit system are also important distinctions. The former more for psychological reasons obviously but still relevant.

For comparison, I'd refer to Toronto's Rocket buses, Brampton Zum, and Waterloo iExpress as BRT-lite for similar reasons. They're all pretty similar to the Kingston Express system.

I'll generally describe the Kingston Express as either 'BRT-lite' or 'very basic BRT' because that's what it is IMO. I avoid referring to it as 'BRT' unqualified because that's obviously overstating it.

As far as I can tell up to this point, Kingston has not been using any traffic signal prioritization on these express routes, though some of the corridors in use already had longer green light cycles than their intersecting roads. There are also no special bus lanes. To me it bears very little resemblance to BRT.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Its pretty necessary in the rail industry as the border essentially doesn't exist in terms of freight movement and it would do nothing but create dangerous situations if rail lines had to switch back and forth.

The use of miles in Canadian railroading really has more to do with the railways being surveyed in miles. Hence all engineering drawings are in miles, all rail subdivisions have mileage boards in miles and all wayside equipment such as switches, signals, hot box detectors and road crossings are identified by their mileage. It would cost significant amounts of money to relabel all the equipment for no gain.
Converting locomotive speedometers to dual or metric could probably be done over time but once again there is cost but no gain.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I know that some industries continue to use imperial measurements, but they really shouldn't. It makes it so hard for us Canadians to have any sense of measurement - can we just finish the damn switchover already, and oust the curmudgeonly old men who have preserved it so, so far beyond its time? Australia switched over their train system, as well as every other application, and now everyone there actually has an innate sense of what a metre and a kilogram mean.

Every industry uses its own arcane measurements, sometimes to simplify esoteric problems. Even in physics and astronomy you find things like the electron-volt and parsec. The power of refrigeration equipment is often quoted in tons, does that make sense to a layman? What matters more than how an industry operates internally is how that it interfaces with the public at large. As long as their public literature is metric, what does it matter that they use miles internally?

[caltrane74]

Finally some close ups

From Metrolinx



Check out their page they have tonnes of photos

[GlassCity]

Makes me think of Mad Men and I can't tell if that's good or not. It's very retro, but I can't decide if I like that

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

As far as I can tell up to this point, Kingston has not been using any traffic signal prioritization on these express routes, though some of the corridors in use already had longer green light cycles than their intersecting roads. There are also no special bus lanes. To me it bears very little resemblance to BRT.

There's signal priority on Bayridge. I think (not sure) they have it on Front too, but it's very hard to tell as Front already got so much green time to begin with (just a gut feeling based on my observation that the #6 seems to catch more reds on Front than the Express). I didn't even realize they had them on Bayridge until I was informed at a transit open house back in June that they're indeed there and have been active since April (don't travel out that way very often so I never got the chance to notice). Didn't ask about Front. I was also told that when they rebuilt Division Street they put in place infrastructure for signal priority at the new traffic lights. I presume it will go active as soon as the Division St express bus launches in May, but we'll have to see.

There's no lanes anywhere, although there's plans for them on Princess through the Counter/Sydenham clusterfuck and along Highway 15.

I wouldn't have called it BRT-lite at all if it weren't for the fact that people have described K-W's iExpress and Brampton's Zum as BRT. Those systems are functionally identical to the one Kingston has--mixed traffic with some signal priority.

I would never call Kingston Express "BRT" unqualified, and if I do, it's a slip of the tongue (finger?). To me, BRT is like what Ottawa has or what York Region has on their Rapidway corridors.

[ssiguy]

So if Lakeshore and Georgetown are grade separated in Toronto then when electrification comes they can run them as real subways.

They don't require EMU units especially as some subway systems don't use third rail but overhead catenary with Cleveland being the closest example.

[caltrane74]

15 minute headways on Lakeshore and Milton would be pretty amazing...

[SignalHillHiker]

You guys should try this in your cities.

• Video Link