The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Innsertnamehere]

There will be plenty of track space, Georgetown south will be as wide as 8 tracks at points.

[ssiguy]

Actually that makes a lot of sense..........faster for long haul passengers and better service for more inner suburbanites. Of course it will mean squat if the fares remain as they are.

Considering these new more short haul GO trains will probably be one level DMU/EMU akin to the O-Train, there is no reason for an extra fare over the standard transit pass, only paying extra when you cross from one system to the other ie Miss to Toronto.

The 2 types of GO would mean much faster service for those travelling the furthest and more infill stations and regular fares would serve hundreds of thousands of people and destination that aren't served now. There is also the added benefit of the long haul trains would remain the diesel double deckers which are more comfortable for longer hauls and are not very efficient with a lot of stations. This is due to taking much longer to board/disembark than standard O-Trains, slower pickups after stops, and they make a lot more noise when stopping and starting than do smaller O-Train type vehicles. Also the fewer stops, the fewer emissions.

[Innsertnamehere]

I don't see GO dropping double deckers, they will probably use bi level EMUs.

[vegeta_skyline]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is all preliminary so that may not happen. But that's what they're looking at so far. Personally I don't think its feasible as I can't see there being enough track room for all that (although from what I heard all grade separations & bridge replacements over GO lines have protected for lots of extra track). But we'll see what happens.

I like the proposed Lakeshore separation. The Kitchener separation seems awkward to me though, I don't like the idea of Kitchener->downtown Brampton requiring a transfer especially given downtown Brampton's role as a mobility hub with the BRT/LRT links to Mississauga & Vaughan.

It's completely feasible based on the number of additional tracks they plan on building on different sections of the line. There maybe a few bridges that need to be rebuilt to accommodate an additional track but that's not a big deal(see Georgetown South). Unfortunately whats not feasible is express service stopping at Brampton station. As they've noted, the corridor through downtown Brampton is constrained. CN will not give GO the track time they need to have both express & local trains stop there. Before anyone suggests the province just makes them, CN is a federally regulated railway, the province has no say in its operations. Also there's certainly not enough time for local trains to turnaround at Brampton so they will need to be routed to Mt Pleasant anyways to turnaround. There are no track time issues at Mt Pleasant since an additional track can easily be accommodated in that section of the corridor.

[1overcosc]

The O-Train in Ottawa is not TC/FRA compliant. It runs under a set of special waivers and rules according to a specific agreement that was made between Transport Canada & the City of Ottawa. It may not be possible to run O-Train type vehicles on the GO corridors.

I don't the whole details of it, but I know that one of the restrictions the O-Train follows is that it is not allowed to have level crossings with roads. It may have rail-to-rail level crossings--it in fact has two, although only one is used by other trains--and it can have pedestrian/cyclist level crossings too, but no road crossings. All roads crossing the O-Train corridor must have overpasses or underpasses.

[1overcosc]

Could the track time issues be resolved by building an underground platform at Brampton GO station? While that would be expensive, it might seriously be worth it given the regional connectivity issue.

[ssiguy]

I don't think GO will ever get rid of their bi-levels either but if they bring in this 2 tier type system I'm sure the long routes will always use bi-levels but for the more local GO I think they will be going with the one-level trains.

One levels usually have wider doors, easier access, and much faster boarding tines. They make much more sense on lines with more stops. Certainly they could run either type train on either system but I think bi-level long haul and one-level short haul would probably be the long term goal.

Visually it also makes sense for passengers to be easily able to distinguish the 2 services.

Curious.............I know GO has many at grade crossings but specifically on the Lakeshore West/East and Georgetown, is the entire system grade separated {or going to be by 2016} in the City of Toronto itself?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

The City has added the planter boxes today! The bike lane opens tomorrow, just in time for Supercrawl.

I did a ride in Dundas and decided I should head over to Hamilton to try out the new bike lanes on Cannon Street. If you saw a fat man in racing kit on a blue bike on Cannon, that was me. The asphalt is really rough, and the neighbourhood may not be the most refined one in Hamilton (to put it mildly), but I think they're a Montreal calibre success.

Later on I rode back to Dundas along King across the 403, and through Mac to Cootes Drive. The separated stretch across the highway is really nice. Hamilton's turning into a half-decent place to ride a bike.

[vegeta_skyline]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Could the track time issues be resolved by building an underground platform at Brampton GO station? While that would be expensive, it might seriously be worth it given the regional connectivity issue.

It's an option, but as you said an expensive one.
The entry/exit grades would have to start just west of Kennedy and east of Fletcher's creek so it would be close to twice as long as the 1.5km long, $214 million dollar Weston 'Tunnel'(more accurately a trench). But there's absolutely no space to do a cut and cover here as with the Weston 'Tunnel'. They'd have to use TBM's and they'd have to go pretty very deep to get under Etobicoke creek and all the other underpasses along the corridor not to mention maintaining the structural integrity of the rail line above it. It may have to take a slightly different route than the corridor itself and who knows how many other physical barriers(utilities, sewage) that might have to be rerouted. The tunnel section would be at least 1.5km long and including the trench section it would be about 2.5km long overall. The other major cost would be underground station itself. A more suitable comparison for such a project would probably be the Eglinton LRT or the YUS extension rather than the Weston grade separation considering the underground station required, a station that will be much larger than those on the metro's. Also this project would be in a much more disruptive location, below a very active passenger & freight rail corridor.
And so the cost for such a project would be more akin to the costs of a subway then the Weston trench. The YUS extension is 2.63 billion for 8.6 km or about $300 million per km. So we're looking at about $500+ for the 1.5km tunnel & the large underground station. Add to that another $100+ or so for the trenches. In all I'd say this thing will run us upwards of $650 million. If I'm in the ballpark with that estimate, I just don't see saving Kitchener folks (the ones heading to Brampton/Mississauga) the inconvenience of transferring being worth 650 mil.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Curious.............I know GO has many at grade crossings but specifically on the Lakeshore West/East and Georgetown, is the entire system grade separated {or going to be by 2016} in the City of Toronto itself?

Lakeshore West, Kitchner & Milton lines yes.
Every other line? Not even close...

Lakeshore East(7);
Scarborough Golf Club Rd. - m(mile) 321.97 Kingston Sub.
Galloway Rd. - m 320.95
Poplar Rd. - m 320.65
Morningside Ave. - m 320.41
Manse Rd. - m 319.90
Beechgrove Dr. - m 318.88
Chesterton Shores(Pedestrian only) - m 317.22

Stouffville(10);
Danforth Rd. - m 60.18 Uxbridge Sub.
Corvette(Pedestrian only) - m 59.96
Progress Ave. - m 56.74
Marilyn Ave(Pedestrian only) - m 55.44
Havendale Rd. - m 55.16
Huntingwood Dr. - m 54.88
Finch Ave. - m 54.43
McNicoll Ave. - m 53.61
Passmore Ave. - m 53.16
Steeles Ave. - m 52.78

Richmond Hill(3);
Pottery Rd. - m 4.43 Bala Sub.
no name(Pedestrian only) - m 4.91
Hydro crossing(Private) - m 7.70

Barrie(5);
Wallace Ave. - m 4.19 Newmarket Sub.
Davenport(Rail crossing - CP North Toronto Sub) - m 4.6
Castlefield Ave. - m 6.89
Carlhall Rd. - m 10.50
York U(Busway) - m 11.88

That's a total of 25 grade crossing of all types still within the city proper, with many more just outside the city limits on every single line.

[Innsertnamehere]

a lot of those have horribly high levels of need for conversion (I forget the name, you get it by multiplying the amount of daily cars by the amount of daily trains). The Stouffville line has all but 1 or 2 of the level crossings south of Mount Joy at the point where they should be grade seperated, but yet only grade separates 3 streets outside of the part of where it runs beside the SRT.

[vegeta_skyline]

Your thinking about the Rail Exposure Index, the number of daily vehicles multiplied by the number of daily trains passing over the crossing.
Indeed many of those crossing are far in excess of Transport Canada's recommendation of 200000 the level at which a grade separation is considered warranted.

[ssiguy]

Thanks for the info.

So basically as it stands now {2016} Toronto now has a complete Lakeshore and Georgetown subway lines. If they would get the rolling stock on the move then Toronto has nearly doubled it's subway length.

[vegeta_skyline]

No problem but... saying its double is not accurate. The Lakeshore West line within Toronto has been grade separated for a very long time, several decades in fact, none of those bridges are new. Same goes for the Milton line which was grade separated through Toronto except for that one crossing at Strachan. But yes, its true that only now can you actually say that its enter length through Toronto (11.8 miles) is completely grade separated. Unfortunately that doesn't mean squat. As anyone who follows the future plans would know, CP has balked at any additional GO service on the line as is. They will need 2 more tracks through most of the corridor, including significant portions in Toronto, before we will see any kind of significant service increases.

So the actual amount of new & usable grade separated track within Toronto is only 13.5 miles. Thanks entirely to the Georgetown south project, which has made the Weston sub grade separated from mile 0 until mile 15.27(mile 13.5 is the border with Mississauga). Yes thats great but its only 13.5, that's not double the current subway system which is 42.4 miles long.

On top of that calling them subway lines is a bit of a stretch too. They're still limited by the signal system and track characteristics, though the system as is can probably achieve 10 min frequencies on lines that have two track dedicated to a local service and infrequent freight movements. However train spacing gets longer during rush hour, just when you need it the most because of much longer loading/unloading times and slower acceleration times due to heavier trains from having more passengers. Now if you consider 15 min spacing to be subway like then that's not a problem even at the most bottled up and busiest sections(local, express+yard movements crossing over multiple tracks) and the Lakeshore West and Kitchener lines within Toronto could do that. Though I don't really see the practicality of a 15 min LW service that terminates at *edit Mimico, LB isn't a convenient place for trains to turn around and there aren't enough tracks. The Weston sub through Troonto is a bit different but lets not rehash that, I think everyone knows you argument there.

[caltrane74]

UPX Express Facebook Page







https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=84...203442.-2207520000.1410720064.&source=54

[vid]

Majestic.

[Nouvellecosse]

I know people have complained about the colour scheme but that is seriously adorable!

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The O-Train in Ottawa is not TC/FRA compliant. It runs under a set of special waivers and rules according to a specific agreement that was made between Transport Canada & the City of Ottawa. It may not be possible to run O-Train type vehicles on the GO corridors.

I don't the whole details of it, but I know that one of the restrictions the O-Train follows is that it is not allowed to have level crossings with roads. It may have rail-to-rail level crossings--it in fact has two, although only one is used by other trains--and it can have pedestrian/cyclist level crossings too, but no road crossings. All roads crossing the O-Train corridor must have overpasses or underpasses.

Remember though, that's just one specific train model which happens to be a very lightweight, European variant. There are plenty of other single level DMUs that would be compatible. I mean, Toronto already has a single level DMU service about to start operation on its tracks for the UPX. If it makes economic sense, there's no reason that similar trains couldn't be used for GO services.

But of course, from my understanding, the Liberal's plan is to electrify the whole network. This makes a lot of sense since even for stretches that are lower traffic and might not warrant electrify on their own, it still probably makes sense in terms of making a cohesive network and standardizing operations and rolling stock.

[vid]

It's a rolling tube of mustard!

[Beedok]

It looks so little. Cute little train.

[eemy]

It's my understanding that there is supposed to be a third middle unit when it goes into service.