Halifax Stadium Discussion

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Oh, I so would not be telling Fenwick to get his facts right when it comes to a stadium. We have hundreds of pages in this thread and Fenwick has been here from the beginning, and has worked harder than anyone else to make it happen.

I don't make up things that the CFL commissioner said that I and many others heard and witnessed. I give accurate remarks that I can back them up. So respect my remarks as well. If Halifax wants to build a 70 million dollar stadium, let them, but it will not be at CFL model, and it will not ever attract a CFL franchise. And whose are the facts.

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by wespidel

I don't make up things that the CFL commissioner said that I and many others heard and witnessed. I give accurate remarks that I can back them up. So respect my remarks as well. If Halifax wants to build a 70 million dollar stadium, let them, but it will not be at CFL model, and it will not ever attract a CFL franchise. And whose are the facts.

The CFL commissioner was interviewed a lot during the 100th Grey Cup and if it wasn't on sportsnet it doesn't matter because he did use the 200 million dollar figure. It may have been on the State of the league address or the media question period, or at the Fan address meeting, or on radio. But it was said, and yes it does offend me, because you are again attacking my integrity which I do not appreciate.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by wespidel

I don't make up things that the CFL commissioner said that I and many others heard and witnessed. I give accurate remarks that I can back them up. So respect my remarks as well. If Halifax wants to build a 70 million dollar stadium, let them, but it will not be at CFL model, and it will not ever attract a CFL franchise. And whose are the facts.

I don't get a sense that Fenwick isn't saying that we can't build a 'CFL model' stadium. What he's saying is that it doesn't have to cost as much as $150 million. There are other ways to deal with those costs...but those are the CFL commissioners comments and if HRM decides that its not going to go out for a CFL team right away then that's council's decision, not the CFL's.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by wespidel

The CFL commissioner was interviewed a lot during the 100th Grey Cup and if it wasn't on sportsnet it doesn't matter because he did use the 200 million dollar figure. It may have been on the State of the league address or the media question period, or at the Fan address meeting, or on radio. But it was said, and yes it does offend me, because you are again attacking my integrity which I do not appreciate.

I feel as though you're an avid CFL fan, and you'd like for Halifax to get a team.

As you've said, this means Halifax would have to build a suitable stadium, which is costly. The amount of money the city is willing to allocate may not be enough to immediately construct a CFL-ready stadium; although, it would have the capacity to be expandable. If a CFL team were to seem more realistic, additional funds could be spent to bring the stadium up to par.

Who knows what the future will hold on this front. Halifax's economy is improving, and Haligonians are gaining more of a football appetite, so the political will is certainly growing!

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by wespidel

You can find his remarks on line if you search.

While it's not a "rule", it's generally expected that anyone posting important statements/info would provide a link to where that information can be verified, rather than telling other forumers to search for it themselves, especially if it may or may not be an exact quote, etc. For the record, the interview under debate can be found here. He does not explicitly say that "any new city wanting a CFL team will need to build a $200M stadium". He makes a rough estimate that all things considered, a stadium would cost somewhere in the range of $200M to build. This is probably based on a rough average of stadium costs across Canada.

He said you need 200 million for a CFL.model stadium today. He probably said that because he would like to see another Winnipeg model but a 150 million stadium like Ottawa's and Hamilton's would quality as well, and have.

This is probably confusing for a lot of people (myself included). It sounds like you're saying he said "we will NOT expand to any stadium valued at less than $200 million, but a $150 million stadium would be ok". This statement does not make any sense. Where did you get the $150 million from?

Regarding the amenities that you insist the stadium must have, I think the CFL would be a little more flexible (at least in terms of expansion to Halifax or QC) than they are letting on. In the last few years, the CFL has made very inconsistent statements on what they would expect in a Halifax CFL stadium. When people on this forum say that a "more bare-bones" stadium might be more prudent, they don't mean build Moncton's stadium V2. They just mean build functionally, not iconically. Build like McMahon (which, yes, has been upgraded since the 60s but is still nothing like the new Winnipeg stadium or Regina stadium or BC Place or the Skydome or the Big O). These stadiums have things that are fancy just for the sake of being fancy. We don't need that. I am also not convinced that the CFL would refuse to expand to Halifax just because our stadium does not have restaurants built into it, or advert ribbons (but has everything else). If you could provide a source for your claim that every CFL team must be able to host a Grey Cup it would also be much appreciated. Is this an actual rule? Would the existing teams who couldn't host a GC have been KICKED OUT of the league if they hadn't been able to build new stadiums?

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I feel as though you're an avid CFL fan, and you'd like for Halifax to get a team.

As you've said, this means Halifax would have to build a suitable stadium, which is costly. The amount of money the city is willing to allocate may not be enough to immediately construct a CFL-ready stadium; although, it would have the capacity to be expandable. If a CFL team were to seem more realistic, additional funds could be spent to bring the stadium up to par.

Who knows what the future will hold on this front. Halifax's economy is improving, and Haligonians are gaining more of a football appetite, so the political will is certainly growing!

It is bare boned and only 10 to 14 thousand permanent seats between the goals lines and not expandable. Only in the endzones, and only to 25 to 27 thousand in total capacity. This is fact and has been posted on line. I can guarantee you a stadium like this will ever attract a new CFL owner today. It has to be CFL ready made and expandable to 45 or 50 thousand seats to host a Grey Cup. And those are the facts. All CFL cities now can host a Grey Cup and it will not be any different for a new CFL franchise owner. This is common knowledge if you know anything about today's CFL. You all are living too much in the past and it is obvious you don't know much about the New CFL, which I do, because I am a huge supporter and follower! Currently with the attitude and lack of vision in HRM, I'm sure they will continue to be small town and build their embarrassing eyesore, small bare boned so called stadium, and will be laughed at by the rest of Canada like they have in the past.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Currently with the attitude and lack of vision in HRM, I'm sure they will continue to be small town and build their embarrassing eyesore, small bare boned so called stadium, and will be laughed at by the rest of Canada like they have in the past.

When has Halifax ever been "laughed at by the rest of Canada (like they have in the past)? In my experience Halifax is one of the most universally liked and respected cities in the country. If you mean the CWG fiasco, I'm not sure that many people in the ROC thought about that for more than a minute or two. It probably didn't make the front page anywhere outside of NS, for example, and was probably only mentioned in a couple short news stories, not covered intensely for months like it was here.

Also, the most recent stadium "proposal" was for a primarily soccer-specific stadium for the FIFA tournament, which is a major reason why potential expansion would have been in the endzones - these aren't necessarily bad seats in soccer like they are in football. I'm pretty confident that if the city built a stadium focused on football, rather than soccer, that it would look quite different from that proposal.

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by Hali87

While it's not a "rule", it's generally expected that anyone posting important statements/info would provide a link to where that information can be verified, rather than telling other forumers to search for it themselves, especially if it may or may not be an exact quote, etc. For the record, the interview under debate can be found here. He does not explicitly say that "any new city wanting a CFL team will need to build a $200M stadium". He makes a rough estimate that all things considered, a stadium would cost somewhere in the range of $200M to build. This is probably based on a rough average of stadium costs across Canada.



This is probably confusing for a lot of people (myself included). It sounds like you're saying he said "we will NOT expand to any stadium valued at less than $200 million, but a $150 million stadium would be ok". This statement does not make any sense. Where did you get the $150 million from?

Regarding the amenities that you insist the stadium must have, I think the CFL would be a little more flexible (at least in terms of expansion to Halifax or QC) than they are letting on. In the last few years, the CFL has made very inconsistent statements on what they would expect in a Halifax CFL stadium. When people on this forum say that a "more bare-bones" stadium might be more prudent, they don't mean build Moncton's stadium V2. They just mean build functionally, not iconically. Build like McMahon (which, yes, has been upgraded since the 60s but is still nothing like the new Winnipeg stadium or Regina stadium or BC Place or the Skydome or the Big O). These stadiums have things that are fancy just for the sake of being fancy. We don't need that. I am also not convinced that the CFL would refuse to expand to Halifax just because our stadium does not have restaurants built into it, or advert ribbons (but has everything else). If you could provide a source for your claim that every CFL team must be able to host a Grey Cup it would also be much appreciated. Is this an actual rule? Would the existing teams who couldn't host a GC have been KICKED OUT of the league if they hadn't been able to build new stadiums?

Built similar to Winnipeg's new model because it is a more desirable stadium than Ottawa's and Hamilton's new 150 million dollar CFL model stadiums, to host a Grey Cup. So in that regard it makes a lot of sense from a league perspective when Mr. Cohon used the 200 million figure, which I stated earlier, that was not made up! Also I can guarantee you, a new modern CFL model ready made stadium with all the newest necessary amenities needed in a stadium today to be viable, which plays a huge part in attracting a new CFL potential owner and that is fact. As well a new facility that is capable of hosting a Grey Cup becomes a huge part of the equation, not only for a new CFL owner, but for the city as well.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Built similar to Winnipeg's new model because it is a more desirable stadium than Ottawa's and Hamilton's new 150 million dollar CFL model stadiums, to host a Grey Cup. So in that regard it makes a lot of sense from a league perspective when Mr. Cohon used the 200 million figure, which I stated earlier, that was not made up! Also I can guarantee you, a new modern CFL model ready made stadium with all the newest necessary amenities needed in a stadium today to be viable, which plays a huge part in attracting a new CFL potential owner and that is fact. As well a new facility that is capable of hosting a Grey Cup becomes a huge part of the equation, not only for a new CFL owner, but for the city as well.

It would be a bit outrageous and risky to build something like that even if HRM could afford it. As of right now none of us (including the CFL) knows how popular the league will really be in the long run. Building something like Winnipegs model is too risky and costly all considering.

I appreciate the enthusiasm about the potential of the CFL out here, but I'm not sure if your even from the area or been involved in the sport around these parts. Its popular, yes, but not enough to justify that kind of infrastructure. Not now. Not for a while.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Built similar to Winnipeg's new model because it is a more desirable stadium than Ottawa's and Hamilton's new 150 million dollar CFL model stadiums, to host a Grey Cup. So in that regard it makes a lot of sense from a league perspective when Mr. Cohon used the 200 million figure, which I stated earlier, that was not made up! Also I can guarantee you, a new modern CFL model ready made stadium with all the newest necessary amenities needed in a stadium today to be viable, which plays a huge part in attracting a new CFL potential owner and that is fact. As well a new facility that is capable of hosting a Grey Cup becomes a huge part of the equation, not only for a new CFL owner, but for the city as well.

I had a hard time understanding this post. I'm not sure which (if any) of the questions you are answering directly. Please try to be more clear, if you can. Again, I'd like to see the sources behind your statement that the ability to host a Grey Cup is a requirement for all CFL teams.

I'd also like to mention again that all other things that I've heard from the CFL in the past several years - other than that one interview you keep mentioning - have led me to believe that we don't really need to go out of our way to try to impress the CFL. We need to meet their basic requirements, and that's it. They're not going to go out of their way to make things difficult for us even if we build what amounts to the second worst stadium in the league.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

It would be a bit outrageous and risky to build something like that even if HRM could afford it. As of right now none of us (including the CFL) knows how popular the league will really be in the long run. Building something like Winnipegs model is too risky and costly all considering.

Quebec City's NHL bid is also pretty sketchy. There's no guarantee that they will get a team and they are spending a lot of money. If they do not get a team I am not sure the investment in their arena will be justified.

In my opinion pro sports are heavily overvalued and governments spend too much on infrastructure that ultimately is mostly designed to generate private profit. The claims that cities "need" sports teams to be important are transparent marketing ploys from the sports teams themselves. It's perverse that taxpayers have to pay for these facilities and then pay high premiums again if they want to actually go inside to watch games. There were some complaints about the $60M or so library, but that is a public building everybody is allowed to take advantage of for free and it has a clear educational purpose. How can the city justify a $200M speculative stadium when its transportation network is a total mess? Even Harbour Solutions was something like $300M in capital costs. I think a $60-70M stadium is an easier sell, although even then there should be much better reasons to build it than "maybe one day we can have a CFL team".

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

It would be a bit outrageous and risky to build something like that even if HRM could afford it. As of right now none of us (including the CFL) knows how popular the league will really be in the long run. Building something like Winnipegs model is too risky and costly all considering.

I appreciate the enthusiasm about the potential of the CFL out here, but I'm not sure if your even from the area or been involved in the sport around these parts. Its popular, yes, but not enough to justify that kind of infrastructure. Not now. Not for a while.

Sad to read comments like this from people who think so lowly of their city that they don't think they can do what the other big cities are doing across the country, it's too bad that there is that type of mindset because Halifax has alot of potential. As far as the bolded comments, the CFL has been around for over 100 years and draws some bigger numbers than NHL hockey in this country, the league has never been better.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by Migs

Sad to read comments like this from people who think so lowly of their city that they don't think they can do what the other big cities are doing across the country, it's too bad that there is that type of mindset because Halifax has alot of potential. As far as the bolded comments, the CFL has been around for over 100 years and draws some bigger numbers than NHL hockey in this country, the league has never been better.

What I mean't was after the "honeymoon" period of a team being in the region we don't know if it will be the big ticket in town so to speak. I didnt mean the league as a whole, just here. Building some mega Winnipeg-esque stadium isn't smart business sense right now.

I'm pro CFL in Halifax, it could definatley work hell I'd buy a season ticket even if I were out west at the time. But if it's going to work it needs to be done right and at a reasonable price.

Wespidel keeps banging on about getting a Winnipeg model for HRM but thats not the rule, its an exception. Places like the Peg and Regina have had CFL clubs for generations so they know they can finance a facility like that, we on the other hand... dont.

Fenwick16's idea of the Akron University model is my favourite suggestion in this whole thread. Halifax should aim for something like that instead. I don't mean to come across as pessimistic, we just need to be realistic about all things considered.

[c-way-dude]

According to this article from the Hamilton Spectator, the actual construction costs of the new Hamilton stadium is $119.1 million.
http://thespec.com/news/article/816350--pan-am-stadium-live-from-ivor-wynne

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I had a hard time understanding this post. I'm not sure which (if any) of the questions you are answering directly. Please try to be more clear, if you can. Again, I'd like to see the sources behind your statement that the ability to host a Grey Cup is a requirement for all CFL teams.

I'd also like to mention again that all other things that I've heard from the CFL in the past several years - other than that one interview you keep mentioning - have led me to believe that we don't really need to go out of our way to try to impress the CFL. We need to meet their basic requirements, and that's it. They're not going to go out of their way to make things difficult for us even if we build what amounts to the second worst stadium in the league.

Have you never been to a live CFL game, and how many? What about Grey Cups! How many have you attended? And how many CFL stadiums have you been in? How educated are you when is comes to really knowing the history and the current status of the CFL. Have you ever talked and established relations with CFL fans across the country. Have you ever met the CFL commissioner and CFL owners, and their players. I would suggest because you question everything that is very commonly known amongst knowledgeable CFL fans across Canada that you know very little, or anything about the CFL. You have something in common though with HRM, no vision, other than a mickey mouse dinky little, bare boned embarrassing eyesore, of a so called stadium that you can sit in by yourself along with the new Mayor's city council, and look pretty silly.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Have you never been to a live CFL game, and how many? What about Grey Cups! How many have you attended? And how many CFL stadiums have you been in? How educated are you when is comes to really knowing the history and the current status of the CFL. Have you ever talked and established relations with CFL fans across the country. Have you ever met the CFL commissioner and CFL owners, and their players. I would suggest because you question everything that is very commonly known amongst knowledgeable CFL fans across Canada that you know very little, or anything about the CFL. You have something in common though with HRM, no vision, other than a mickey mouse dinky little, bare boned embarrassing eyesore, of a so called stadium that you can sit in by yourself along with the new Mayor's city council, and look pretty silly.

I think you're misreading my position on this. I don't want what you said I want.

I've been to two regular season CFL games and the first Touchdown Atlantic, which was held at SMU. I've been to other events at Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton and the Rogers Centre in Toronto, and Huskies Stadium. I've seen stadiums in many other places - Vancouver, Kamloops, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, North York, Montreal. That's about it. I know a bit about the CFL but I don't really follow it closely other than the finals and news about whether Halifax will get a team. I have never met the CFL commissioner or any owners of any team (to my knowledge at least). I haven't really reached out to CFL fans anywhere except for very locally.

What I have done is followed the news regarding the stadium, attended a few of the public consultations for the FIFA stadium, and spoken to a lot of people in the HRM and what I've been saying is based on their opinions, not the opinions of CFL enthusiasts from outside NS. It is also based on the many things that I've heard in the media in the last 10 years or so about the CFL, the stadium, etc.

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I think you're misreading my position on this. I don't want what you said I want.

I've been to two regular season CFL games and the first Touchdown Atlantic, which was held at SMU. I've been to other events at Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton and the Rogers Centre in Toronto, and Huskies Stadium. I've seen stadiums in many other places - Vancouver, Kamloops, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, North York, Montreal. That's about it. I know a bit about the CFL but I don't really follow it closely other than the finals and news about whether Halifax will get a team. I have never met the CFL commissioner or any owners of any team (to my knowledge at least). I haven't really reached out to CFL fans anywhere except for very locally.

What I have done is followed the news regarding the stadium, attended a few of the public consultations for the FIFA stadium, and spoken to a lot of people in the HRM and what I've been saying is based on their opinions, not the opinions of CFL enthusiasts from outside NS. It is also based on the many things that I've heard in the media in the last 10 years or so about the CFL, the stadium, etc.

In my opinion and in most every case, the Premier of the province has to step up and support a major stadium project in Halifax and what I mean by that is not to treat it second rate, like HRM's current embarrassing steering committee's model. Dexter is spending 100's of millions of taxpayers money in give aways to the Irvings, free hand outs to dying Paper Mills, and a 100 million plus on land, etc. It is time he gives back some of that money to the public, for a major stadium. And yes I said before that if Halifax were to build a stadium on a piece of land they own that is ready and cost efficient to build on, then they should be able to build a CFL ready made model for 120 million, especially if they buy all their concrete and steel locally and direct. Their labour costs would be less than Ontario's as well. Now it won't be as fancy but it would qualify if it had all the necessary amenities and the base capacity, and designed properly so it was capable of staging a Grey Cup game. HRM also has to show a lot more support than 20 million. It will be interesting with what or anything will happen. But with Shannon Park lands now a priority for the Feds to sell and Cogswell interchange now possibly in the picture as a potential stadium site, it does not make any sense business wise to build their current embarrassing bare boned 10 to 14 thousand permanent seat stadium. There is a bit of hope if the New Mayor follows through on his last comments before he was elected, which was totally different from what he previously supported, which was the steering committee's FIFA bare boned small minimum stadium model. The New Mayor did say after his original comments on a stadium, on 957 radio that maybe we should look at a different model. Lets hope the new Mayor and same old council other than a few newcomers has some real vision this time around and does listen to the public, which they didn't last time, and builds a CFL ready made, model stadium.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

Quebec City's NHL bid is also pretty sketchy. There's no guarantee that they will get a team and they are spending a lot of money. If they do not get a team I am not sure the investment in their arena will be justified.

In my opinion pro sports are heavily overvalued and governments spend too much on infrastructure that ultimately is mostly designed to generate private profit. The claims that cities "need" sports teams to be important are transparent marketing ploys from the sports teams themselves. It's perverse that taxpayers have to pay for these facilities and then pay high premiums again if they want to actually go inside to watch games. There were some complaints about the $60M or so library, but that is a public building everybody is allowed to take advantage of for free and it has a clear educational purpose. How can the city justify a $200M speculative stadium when its transportation network is a total mess? Even Harbour Solutions was something like $300M in capital costs. I think a $60-70M stadium is an easier sell, although even then there should be much better reasons to build it than "maybe one day we can have a CFL team".

I completely agree.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Now it won't be as fancy but it would qualify if it had all the necessary amenities and the base capacity, and designed properly so it was capable of staging a Grey Cup game. HRM also has to show a lot more support than 20 million. It will be interesting with what or anything will happen. But with Shannon Park lands now a priority for the Feds to sell and Cogswell interchange now possibly in the picture as a potential stadium site, it does not make any sense business wise to build their current embarrassing bare boned 10 to 14 thousand permanent seat stadium. There is a bit of hope if the New Mayor follows through on his last comments before he was elected, which was totally different from what he previously supported, which was the steering committee's FIFA bare boned small minimum stadium model. The New Mayor did say after his original comments on a stadium, on 957 radio that maybe we should look at a different model. Lets hope the new Mayor and same old council other than a few newcomers has some real vision this time around and does listen to the public, which they didn't last time, and builds a CFL ready made, model stadium.

I completely agree.

[c-way-dude]

A while back in this thread the new stadium being built at Alabama State University was brought up as an example Halifax might follow. The stadium is now open. Here are some pictures from the stadium opener.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set?set=a.433917263337807.103018.190006724395530&type=1
The stadium cost $62 million to build. It features 26500 seats, 200 loge seats, 750 club seats, 20 luxury boxes, and a 64 foot tall high-definition scoreboard.