PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[PhilliesPhan]

TBH, I don't get the undying love that some (not anyone on this forum. Moreso on Facebook) for the T. I've been to Boston a few times and found the T to be useful, but still concluded that SEPTA is the superior system. My biggest annoyance of the T is the fact that it stops running too early. A few years ago, I went to a bar in Cambridge with a few of my friends. We were alarmed to discover that the last Red Line train passed through around 12:30AM. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the T had other late-night services, but this wasn't the case and we had to end our night out early. At least with SEPTA, I knew (and still know) that I can make my way home after the bars close--even into the Northwest, which has little late-night service (although, prior to the pandemic, I remember a 1:40AM-1:50AM departure on the R6 Manayunk/Norristown Line).

IMO, for the T to match SEPTA, they would have to run service later into the night, extend the Blue Line to connect with the Red Line at Charles/MGH, connect North and South Station via a tunnel, electrify both ends of the system, and resolve their operational/safety issues. The T is one of my favorite American public transit systems, but I don't think it tops SEPTA and PATCO.

[Justin7]

Undying love: It's pretty simple. I lived on the red line and two branches of the green line without owning a car. I could always* get where I wanted, when I wanted, and always felt that it was safe and clean. This is absolutely not the case in Philadelphia. I wish it were. I know some of you guys work at SEPTA. I don't mean any offense. Maybe Septa is better run than the MBTA, but as far as being able to use public transit to actually get around, it's not even close.

*Yes, lack of late night service and the green line not having signal priority (which was completely ridiculous but I think it's improved?) were my only complaints. There were delays above ground when there was heavy snow and people complained, but it seemed reasonable.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Undying love: It's pretty simple. I lived on the red line and two branches of the green line without owning a car. I could always* get where I wanted, when I wanted, and always felt that it was safe and clean. This is absolutely not the case in Philadelphia. I wish it were. I know some of you guys work at SEPTA. I don't mean any offense. Maybe Septa is better run than the MBTA, but as far as being able to use public transit to actually get around, it's not even close.

*Yes, lack of late night service and the green line not having signal priority (which was completely ridiculous but I think it's improved?) were my only complaints. There were delays above ground when there was heavy snow and people complained, but it seemed reasonable.

No offense taken, I just don't see a reality in which the two can even be compared in terms of quality of service. Maybe things were different pre-COVID but the MBTA has been collapsing for a couple of years now.

I won't argue that the MBTA is better laid out than Philadelphia's network, but what we have is pretty good for getting around. I live in West Philly and haven't owned a car in a year or two. I have had no problems. SEPTA can generally get me to where I need to go, and pretty fast (though I won't argue that it's safer crimewise or cleaner than the MBTA).

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

No offense taken, I just don't see a reality in which the two can even be compared in terms of quality of service. Maybe things were different pre-COVID but the MBTA has been collapsing for a couple of years now.

I won't argue that the MBTA is better laid out than Philadelphia's network, but what we have is pretty good for getting around. I live in West Philly and haven't owned a car in a year or two. I have had no problems. SEPTA can generally get me to where I need to go, and pretty fast (though I won't argue that it's safer crimewise or cleaner than the MBTA).

Again, and like everything, the reason why Philly gets dinged on every measure is because of the violence and disrespect that occurs in common areas. People their garbage everywhere and violent criminals doing their bull$hit is why our stuff is so low rated.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Would you? Would you really? Let me walk you through the headlines from this summer.

NTSB report: Door-system failure led to death of MBTA passenger

MBTA pulls cars from service after brake issue

More bolt issues found in MBTA railcars

MBTA operators injured in Green Line collision in Boston

No injuries reported in MBTA low-speed derailment

Federal Directives order MBTA to address safety issues

Dispatcher shortage leads MBTA to cut service on three subway lines

MBTA pulls newest cars from service over battery issue

MBTA halts service on two subway lines over structural concerns

MBTA Orange Line train catches fire on bridge

'Unintentional' move of MBTA train causes commuter delays

FTA orders 'safety standdown' for MBTA over runaway trains

MBTA to shut down Orange Line for a month

MBTA to close part of Green Line for four weeks, pushes back opening of new branch

All of these headlines are since May 3, 2022. SEPTA (knock on wood) has not had a major derailment on Regional Rail in over twenty years. The last El derailment was in 2014 with no one aboard. The last time someone died on an accident on the El/BSL was, by my recollection, in the 1990s.

SEPTA receives from PA half of the per-rider funding that the MBTA gets from MA, yet manages to keep everything running. The Trolley Blitz is the closest we come to any of this and even then, it's planned work that happens on a regular schedule. Imagine what we could do if we received the money that they're getting.

Holy cow. That’s wild. I think this speaks to how much the perception of safety matters. I was in Boston yesterday and their system just looks and feels safer. Nowhere did I see the equivalent of city hall underground. SEPTA may be a very safe agency operations wise, and believe me that matters a ton, but I think the average visitor/rider looks at the feel of the system and makes a determination based on that. I said this in a different thread but I didn’t even take my family on the BSL because I didn’t want to show them underground coming up into dilworth park. Above ground in the park is fantastic. My brother even mentioned how cool the sloping glass entrance looked. Then you go underground and it looks like it was built in the 60s and left to rot. I know SEPTA doesn’t get as much funding from our state government but leaving city hall station the way it is just seems incomprehensible.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Holy cow. That’s wild. I think this speaks to how much the perception of safety matters. I was in Boston yesterday and their system just looks and feels safer. Nowhere did I see the equivalent of city hall underground. SEPTA may be a very safe agency operations wise, and believe me that matters a ton, but I think the average visitor/rider looks at the feel of the system and makes a determination based on that. I said this in a different thread but I didn’t even take my family on the BSL because I didn’t want to show them underground coming up into dilworth park. Above ground in the park is fantastic. My brother even mentioned how cool the sloping glass entrance looked. Then you go underground and it looks like it was built in the 60s and left to rot. I know SEPTA doesn’t get as much funding from our state government but leaving city hall station the way it is just seems incomprehensible.

well the parts directly underneath and tied into dilworth were redone when the park was built, but city hall station and the approaching corridors need a lot of work. Also 15th Street was just redone within the last year. City Hall is in desperate need of upgrades and they need to do a spruce up before the larger project to rehab and add elevators starts. The station needs help before that.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by McBane

I definitely get a little envious of Boston when I visit. The streets are cleaner and there's so much less poverty! Their version of Market East (forgot what it's called) was super vibrant, clean, and full of shoppers (and this was in the winter, no less). And their subway system, while small, is highly efficient with frequent headways, even on Sundays. (Disclaimer: these things don't make Boston better and there's lots of areas where Philly excels.)

Yes, there are a lot of structural differences that give Boston a leg up (like being the state capital, being the regional capital, and not being resented by most of the state).

However, give credit where credit is due: Boston is simply a better run city whereas Philly is run by complete imbeciles who are petty, corrupt, parochial, and shortsighted. Yes, Rendell and Nutter were anomalies, but the issue runs deeper than the mayor; the entire political structure, down to the ward level is so corrupt and inept.

Put it this way: Boston owes a lot its success to its leadership whereas I think Philly's successes have come despite our leadership.

As you mentioned Boston has advantages related to location and demographics that enable some of what you are seeing. Blaming every difference between cities on the quality of its politicians is an oversimplification. It's like saying Miami has tons of millionaire condo owners because its a better run city- no its because of all that beachfront property and the lack of winter plus the proximity to central and south america. If you flip the argument around you can say some cities are doing better simply based on the superior hands they were dealt in spite of the competence of their local politicians.

[McBane]

Not following this logic ^

My post DID say that Boston's success has to do with BOTH its structural advantages AND better leadership. Yes, Philly is handcuffed by our ungrateful Commonwealth but just as well by poor leadership.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Again, and like everything, the reason why Philly gets dinged on every measure is because of the violence and disrespect that occurs in common areas. People their garbage everywhere and violent criminals doing their bull$hit is why our stuff is so low rated.

Correct. It's maddening to see how much potential is being held back because of the it's cool to be a total d-bag Philly culture.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by McBane

Not following this logic ^

My post DID say that Boston's success has to do with BOTH its structural advantages AND better leadership. Yes, Philly is handcuffed by our ungrateful Commonwealth but just as well by poor leadership.

Your post specifically said Philly is doing worse because our politicians (except for Nutter and Rendell) are corrupt and inept. These statements may get kudos from the peanut gallery but they dont hold water or stand up to any basic scrutiny. Not half, not most, not a plurality of our local politicians are corrupt- period. They may make decisions that some dont agree with- that is not corruption. Hell, its not even ineptitude. Its easy scapegoating to blame someone for complex problems and issues. Im not an expert in Boston politics but I wouldnt be shocked if the proportion of indicted or investigated local officials there is on par with what we have here. I was just with a friend who loved in DC for the last decade or so and he was telling me about how many city council people have been investigated or charged by the feds during that time period. And yet in terms of development and population growth DC is doing great.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Correct. It's maddening to see how much potential is being held back because of the it's cool to be a total d-bag Philly culture.

What's d-bag Philly culture as opposed to d-bag culture? I assume you are thinking of something unique to Philadelphia since you added that qualifier. Is Harrisburg d-bag culture different?

[Knight Hospitaller]

^ All d-bagging is local?

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by PHL10

What's d-bag Philly culture as opposed to d-bag culture? I assume you are thinking of something unique to Philadelphia since you added that qualifier. Is Harrisburg d-bag culture different?

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

^ All d-bagging is local?

It's acceptable here to be a self-centered ignorant d-bag aka throwing your trash out of your car at a red light or on the floor of the train, parking in the median and on top of grass, etc. Those of us who have lived other places and/or have traveled extensively know that there are specific, "I haven't experienced this anywhere else but here [particularly on such a large scale]," type of behaviors.

And yes, I would say that it is local and if someone said, "LA d-bag" or "Beverly Hills d-bag" or "DC d-bag" you would be able to conjure up an image of what those behaviors may be.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Your post specifically said Philly is doing worse because our politicians (except for Nutter and Rendell) are corrupt and inept. These statements may get kudos from the peanut gallery but they dont hold water or stand up to any basic scrutiny. Not half, not most, not a plurality of our local politicians are corrupt- period.

To clarify, I meant most were inept or corrupt. But I was taking the broadest view possible, not just illegal corruption. Take councilmanic prerogative as an example. It may not be illegal but it sure as shit is corrupt, can (and probably does) lead to abuse, and is simply bad policy. But there's no will to change it. DROP is another example. Yes, it finally went away (in spite of the establishment's defense of it) but how did it get to where it was in the first place? There's probably a lot more awful traditions, laws, and procedures that similarly straddle the line between legal and illegal.

So yes, it's true that not half, not most, not a plurality of them are breaking laws but don't pretend they're all good, honest folks looking out for the City's best interest. (Thought that's probably true of most politicians period).

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by McBane

To clarify, I meant most were inept or corrupt. But I was taking the broadest view possible, not just illegal corruption. Take councilmanic prerogative as an example. It may not be illegal but it sure as shit is corrupt, can (and probably does) lead to abuse, and is simply bad policy. But there's no will to change it. DROP is another example. Yes, it finally went away (in spite of the establishment's defense of it) but how did it get to where it was in the first place? There's probably a lot more awful traditions, laws, and procedures that similarly straddle the line between legal and illegal.

So yes, it's true that not half, not most, not a plurality of them are breaking laws but don't pretend they're all good, honest folks looking out for the City's best interest. (Thought that's probably true of most politicians period).

Look no further than the years that OTIS spent on Washington Ave all to have it blown up by a self-interested politician that stays in power by keeping people poor through councilmanic prerogative.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Look no further than the years that OTIS spent on Washington Ave all to have it blown up by a self-interested politician that stays in power by keeping people poor through councilmanic prerogative.

Didn't we go over that his constituents didn't want that plan.

Anyone know what the data was for Majority for the plan and against it in his district?

[Skintreesnail]

74% in favor of the 3 lane proposal.
https://www.phila.gov/media/20210420...ey-results.pdf

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Didn't we go over that his constituents didn't want that plan.

Anyone know what the data was for Majority for the plan and against it in his district?

AFAIK the overwhelming majority of people who live on or near Washington Ave are in favor of calming Washington Ave. But the powers-that-be deep-sixed a fairly sane road diet and kept Washington Ave a four-lane stroad.

Oh well. Maybe we can try to turn the 64 into a light rail line instead.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

AFAIK the overwhelming majority of people who live on or near Washington Ave are in favor of calming Washington Ave. But the powers-that-be deep-sixed a fairly sane road diet and kept Washington Ave a four-lane stroad.

Oh well. Maybe we can try to turn the 64 into a light rail line instead.

I’ve heard the idea floating around of turning the 52/64 into a light rail. Runs down 52nd, then heads east across the river, then down Washington to the Delaware.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by McBane

To clarify, I meant most were inept or corrupt. But I was taking the broadest view possible, not just illegal corruption. Take councilmanic prerogative as an example. It may not be illegal but it sure as shit is corrupt, can (and probably does) lead to abuse, and is simply bad policy. But there's no will to change it. DROP is another example. Yes, it finally went away (in spite of the establishment's defense of it) but how did it get to where it was in the first place? There's probably a lot more awful traditions, laws, and procedures that similarly straddle the line between legal and illegal.

So yes, it's true that not half, not most, not a plurality of them are breaking laws but don't pretend they're all good, honest folks looking out for the City's best interest. (Thought that's probably true of most politicians period).

I think DROP started under Rendell- the one who you said was not corrupt. Politicians should not have been eligible but they didnt craft the law that way- but the initial reasoning had nothing to do with corruption and 99.9% of people who enrolled in DROP were not elected officials. Whatever they got out of it was inconsequential in relation to the size of the program.

Its interesting how people conflate their personal disdain for others as proof of ineptitude, ignorance, malice, corruption, etc. None of the things you mention are corruption or even evidence of immoral behavior in office. The prerogative may not be the best policy, but a local politician trying to have influence over things within their district (especially in response to what constituents may want or not want) is not corruption.