Atlanta Project Thread IV

[atlHawks]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

DRC Recap

Was there any discussion on what the old building might become?

[Libertarian]

"Would sure make a dynamite venue for weddings, bar/bat mitzvah events, fund raisers etc." - Capt. Obvious

[(four 0 four)]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

"Would sure make a dynamite venue for weddings, bar/bat mitzvah events, fund raisers etc." - Capt. Obvious

...funerals.

[Martinman]

The more I look at this, the more I like it.    I love the way the new tower relates to the chapel building, unlike what happened at Coda.  And the glass treatment appears to be similar to what they (Cooper Carry) did at Amli 3464.  Depending on the materials, of course, I think it could be an outstanding development.

[Neighbor]

Whatnowatlanta article says completion is estimated to be in 2025. Can someone please explain why it takes 5 years+ to build a building in America but under 1 year in China. Legitimately, I am shocked at these timelines and it never seems to trend shorter, only longer.

What are the long term implications of such exacerbated building timelines compared to our economic rivals?

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by Neighbor

Whatnowatlanta article says completion is estimated to be in 2025. Can someone please explain why it takes 5 years+ to build a building in America but under 1 year in China. Legitimately, I am shocked at these timelines and it never seems to trend shorter, only longer.

What are the long term implications of such exacerbated building timelines compared to our economic rivals?

Insane, this will never get built. A lot of us will be dead.

[MidtownDev]

The 2025 completion date is noted for both Phase I and II... if you look down at the second line, it identifies all of the uses:

"Once complete, the mixed-use would include a 325-room hotel, 350 apartments, 700,000 square feet of office, and retail."

The renderings of the tower are strictly Phase I (the resi component with some retail).

[atlHawks]

Originally Posted by MidtownDev

The 2025 completion date is noted for both Phase I and II... if you look down at the second line, it identifies all of the uses:

"Once complete, the mixed-use would include a 325-room hotel, 350 apartments, 700,000 square feet of office, and retail."

The renderings of the tower are strictly Phase I (the resi component with some retail).

That still doesn't excuse the completion date of 2025, especially at this prime location.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by atlHawks

That still doesn't excuse the completion date of 2025, especially at this prime location.

Portman holdings is smart in that they know there is a lot of commercial office space in the pipeline now, so maybe they want to stagger the availability so there is not a flood of empty office buildings all at once and they have to lower rents or pay for an empty building. They must be jumping on the residential tower now because the metrics are better for residential. You guys don’t seem to think there might be methodical means for development and these guys are pros and know what they are doing. In the meantime, China suffers from huge empty ghost cities from over building and suffers from quality issues with development from shorty construction. If you want explosive growth and building bubbles for Atlanta, good for you, but I would rather have smart constant growth, which seems to be what has been happening in Atlanta thus far.

[dpoulos27]

Originally Posted by montydawg

Portman holdings is smart in that they know there is a lot of commercial office space in the pipeline now, so maybe they want to stagger the availability so there is not a flood of empty office buildings all at once and they have to lower rents or pay for an empty building. They must be jumping on the residential tower now because the metrics are better for residential. You guys don’t seem to think there might be methodical means for development and these guys are pros and know what they are doing. In the meantime, China suffers from huge empty ghost cities from over building and suffers from quality issues with development from shorty construction. If you want explosive growth and building bubbles for Atlanta, good for you, but I would rather have smart constant growth, which seems to be what has been happening in Atlanta thus far.

NAILED IT - Completely agree

The project looks great and is a lot better than I had hoped for

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by montydawg

Portman holdings is smart in that they know there is a lot of commercial office space in the pipeline now, so maybe they want to stagger the availability so there is not a flood of empty office buildings all at once and they have to lower rents or pay for an empty building. They must be jumping on the residential tower now because the metrics are better for residential. You guys don’t seem to think there might be methodical means for development and these guys are pros and know what they are doing. In the meantime, China suffers from huge empty ghost cities from over building and suffers from quality issues with development from shorty construction. If you want explosive growth and building bubbles for Atlanta, good for you, but I would rather have smart constant growth, which seems to be what has been happening in Atlanta thus far.

Exactly. There could a hundred different factors for them to create that timeline.
According to the Business Chronicle there is around 4 million square feet of office space under construction in Midtown right now, of which approximately 80% is already spoken for. That still leaves a ton of new space coming to the market and we still don't know the full economic impact of covid-19. This "excuse" is this is the real world, not Sim City.

[SteveD]

Give the guy a break. There's a big difference between sim city and exposive growth and seeing project details in 2020 with a 2025 deliverable timeline.

We all know what he's talking about. Just about everything here and across the country moves at a snail's pace.

[Atlriser]

As someone who works in construction everyday from project proposals to completions, construction does not move at a snails pace. Construction is one of the most time sensitive and driven activities there is from initial RFQs onward. To think 2025 is a long time for a new 3 story proposal complete buildout is ridiculous. It seems logical and appropriate if you are in the field. It’s more than just creating blueprints and construction. It’s about demand, design, financing, government review and feedback, costs and on and on....4.5 yrs for all 3 towers sounds like a good timeline honestly. I doubt it happens that quickly!

I’m not sure where you get 12 month build outs for towers in China. Yes the commie block style towers that are identical can be built in 12-18 months but the premier towers that you see in China typically take 3-5 yrs or longer from proposal to completion. Same for the towers in Europe. Thinking American construction takes longer is a falsehood. The Burj Al Arab took over 12 yrs to construct but it is the tallest in the world also.

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

As someone who works in construction everyday from project proposals to completions, construction does not move at a snails pace. Construction is one of the most time sensitive and driven activities there is from initial RFQs onward. To think 2025 is a long time for a new 3 story proposal complete buildout is ridiculous. It seems logical and appropriate if you are in the field. It’s more than just creating blueprints and construction. It’s about demand, design, financing, government review and feedback, costs and on and on....4.5 yrs for all 3 towers sounds like a good timeline honestly. I doubt it happens that quickly!

I agree with you. People forget we were hearing about the Midtown Union proposal(or very early plans) since 2015. It's 2020 and we're only now in the thick of construction with that project. They also forget that the economy is kind of in a wierd spot. 2025 completition is not out of question for a project of this magnitude.

[AtlHeel]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I agree with you. People forget we were hearing about the Midtown Union proposal(or very early plans) since 2015. It's 2020 and we're only now in the thick of construction with that project. They also forget that the economy is kind of in a wierd spot. 2025 completition is not out of question for a project of this magnitude.

Some don't like to know facts. I appreciate you and Altriser comments

[Neighbor]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

I’m not sure where you get 12 month build outs for towers in China. Yes the commie block style towers that are identical can be built in 12-18 months but the premier towers that you see in China typically take 3-5 yrs or longer from proposal to completion. Same for the towers in Europe. Thinking American construction takes longer is a falsehood. The Burj Al Arab took over 12 yrs to construct but it is the tallest in the world also.

I know it is tempting to strawman China and its buildings, but you really ought to check out some of the Chinese threads on this very forum. The reality is that many projects in China blow current American architecture out of the water AND they are building them in a fraction of the time. Someone else commented that the Empire State building only took a little over a year to build and that was in the 30's. I doubt anyone would suggest this building is more architecturally significant or difficult to build.

To be clear, I don't mean to pick on this particular building or Portman. I think this is emblematic of America today and a symptom of its bureaucracy. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not an expert in this field. But I can say that from my observations on what other countries are doing and what we have done in THIS country in the past, I see no basis for current construction times. The limitations on building do not seem to be technological, rather institutional. So again, can someone please explain why perceived lesser countries can build more sophisticated buildings in a fraction of the time?

To address the demand argument, are we not bombarded by articles daily talking about housing shortages? I don't mean to get into a back and forth on demand - so for purposes of my question above, let's all assume that there is demand in the market to absorb this building today.

[tturner39]

Thought this was interesting, Cousins bought the properties at 903 West Peachtree last month. Not sure if someone has already reported it on here, but hopefully that means something is moving forward soon. On an earnings call, the CEO mentioned that around 80% of the spec supply in Midtown is pre-leased with some unannounced big deals. I'm tracking about 61% of Midtown's office space as pre-leased. So, Cousins seems really bullish on Midtown.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Neighbor

The limitations on building do not seem to be technological, rather institutional. So again, can someone please explain why perceived lesser countries can build more sophisticated buildings in a fraction of the time?

For one thing, the government 'owns' all the land in China, so when a local official wants to build something, they just pay 'market value' to the current owner ('owners' actually lease the land for a maximum of 99 years), and then they start building. I've seen also where local communist officials get bonuses and promotions based on how much development goes on in their district, to fulfill the CCP's master plan of moving people from poor rural areas to urban areas, so there is a heavy incentive from the government to develop projects. In the United States, we do not have the same government programs. I would compare it to Roosevelt's public works programs of the 1930's, except on a much larger scale. With US developers having to source funds for projects from banks, not the government in most cases, and without the same government involvement, I don't think you can easily compare progress in China to that of the United States because the incentives are completely different.

Additionally, the Chinese central bank has been known to devalue their currency, so Chinese goods are artificially cheap on the world market. Since the government owns all the banks, I would speculate one way they devalue their currency is to print a lot extra money, to be spent on development and public works projects. The United States, while we take on a lot of debt, has limitations on how much money we can print, and with the trade deficit we have, we cannot go wild printing money as that would devalue our currency too much. As you know, the politicians have other priorities on spending our money, not development or infrastructure, so that is more of a political issue, not a China-USA comparison issue.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

As someone who works in construction everyday from project proposals to completions, construction does not move at a snails pace. Construction is one of the most time sensitive and driven activities there is from initial RFQs onward. To think 2025 is a long time for a new 3 story proposal complete buildout is ridiculous. It seems logical and appropriate if you are in the field. It’s more than just creating blueprints and construction. It’s about demand, design, financing, government review and feedback, costs and on and on....4.5 yrs for all 3 towers sounds like a good timeline honestly. I doubt it happens that quickly!

I’m not sure where you get 12 month build outs for towers in China. Yes the commie block style towers that are identical can be built in 12-18 months but the premier towers that you see in China typically take 3-5 yrs or longer from proposal to completion. Same for the towers in Europe. Thinking American construction takes longer is a falsehood. The Burj Al Arab took over 12 yrs to construct but it is the tallest in the world also.

I do too, and yes, by and large, it does.

[Atlriser]

I’m not here to argue or try and change minds but even using the Empire State Building as an example of 12 months is untrue. The property was bought and was under design for 10 months before construction began. Then it opened 13.5 months later. It was not 100% complete at time of opening. Again your expectations are not realistic and how long did the building sit before it was full? I’d rather build a building that has a reasonable expectation of being filled within a year of opening then to build a bunch of building that will sit empty for years like many in China are currently.

The desire is to have an active lively city not ghost streets with tall buildings like Atlanta was up until the last 15 years or so.