Winnipeg | The Forks Market | Railside at The Forks

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by bryanscott

The sharp curve in the rail is unique, and my office is practically an arm's reach from that curve (maybe 50 meters). Spend some time in my chair and you'd likely change your tune.

o i know that squeel very well very very well worked across the street from it at portage and westbrook for a summer got worse depending if they were full or empty or if they were speeding up or slowing down there seemed to be a sweet spot for the speed that would stop that squeel though

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't know what the population was in the 90s, but downtown went from 13,400 in 2006 to 16,000 in 2014. (I'm sure the 90s numbers would have been similar to 2006 since there wasn't much built in the 90s and early 00s.)

That's a nice increase, but barely 2,500 people isn't really what I'd classify as a dramatic change. I mean, I'm sure it has increased further since 2014, but to me dramatic change would be dozens of new buildings... highrises, lowrises and everything in between. If we had seen truly dramatic changes in population, I think downtown would look and feel much different compared to a decade ago, but I couldn't honestly say that it does.

Exactly.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't know what the population was in the 90s, but downtown went from 13,400 in 2006 to 16,000 in 2014. (I'm sure the 90s numbers would have been similar to 2006 since there wasn't much built in the 90s and early 00s.)

That's a nice increase, but barely 2,500 people isn't really what I'd classify as a dramatic change. I mean, I'm sure it has increased further since 2014, but to me dramatic change would be dozens of new buildings... highrises, lowrises and everything in between. If we had seen truly dramatic changes in population, I think downtown would look and feel much different compared to a decade ago, but I couldn't honestly say that it does.

I don't know, I think this guy has some cred :

Brent Bellamy, chairman of CentreVenture and the creative director at Number Ten Architectural Group, said the change is cause for celebration.

"There are more people living downtown today than ever have in the history of Winnipeg," he said. "It's becoming a real neighbourhood."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...413218973.html

According to the article, downtown, after decades of stagnation, has grown faster than the city as a whole. That's why I call it progress.

[esquire]

^ Things are improving, for sure. But come on... who could really stand there with a straight face and say that downtown Winnipeg of 2017 is wildly different than downtown Winnipeg of 15 or 20 years ago? I certainly couldn't. The challenges that existed then still remain now.

Compared to the accelerated change witnessed in Canadian cities larger than Winnipeg over that timeframe, we've barely budged. Some areas within downtown have certainly changed... the Exchange being perhaps the best example. But on the whole? Barely.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Things are improving, for sure. But come on... who could really stand there with a straight face and say that downtown Winnipeg of 2017 is wildly different than downtown Winnipeg of 15 or 20 years ago? I certainly couldn't. The challenges that existed then still remain now.

Compared to the accelerated change witnessed in Canadian cities larger than Winnipeg over that timeframe, we've barely budged. Some areas within downtown have certainly changed... the Exchange being perhaps the best example. But on the whole? Barely.

One of the challenges for Winnipeg is the massive size of its downtown. I know I spend probably 3 times the amount of time there that I used to, dining and going to functions. I probably spend more time there now than when I lived in Winnipeg.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

One of the challenges for Winnipeg is the massive size of its downtown.

I agree with you there... that may be the biggest single obstacle, in fact. I posted the maps below in another thread to illustrate the size of our downtown relative to those of larger cities. It shows how physically massive our downtown is.



In a city with a small downtown, you clean up three or four streets and you've revitalized downtown. Look at all the stories about Fargo's downtown renaissance... you're really only talking a few streets. Conversely, Winnipeg's downtown is pretty well the same size as Calgary's, a city with close to double the population and much more money to throw around.

[oftheMoon]

Beyond the bricks and mortar there is a fundamental shift in people wanting to come downtown for a variety of reasons in numbers that we didn't see 10 - 15 years ago. I find it hard hard to argue the changes that have been made which drastically improve the quality of being there.

Seems to me just MTS Centre alone bringing over 1 million people downtown annually is a bit of a change from pre 2004, no? Notwithstanding recent festival successes such as Many Fest, Nuit Blanche and Interstellar Rodeo that didn't exist 10 years ago which brings tens of thousands of people downtown each summer that were not coming downtown before. And I'm certain at least 20 - 25 restaurants/bars/coffee shops/brew pubs have been added in that time also.

Add on +/- 25% more residents than existed in the late '90s and while this is not a wildsignificance, it's clear things have changed for the better. Maybe downtown Winnipeg has not seen as much change as other cities, but downtown Winnipeg circa 2017 is a far cry from downtown Winnipeg in the early '00s.

[Urban recluse]

Thank you Esquire, someone who has his eyes open.

[Urban recluse]

That is an overused excuse at this point. Yes, not every square inch of downtown will be revitalized in our lifetime, but for the downtown to not have one stretch of continuous shops, pubs, etc is embarrassing. The Old Market district in Omaha, as an example, has so many streets lined with pubs, shops, etc. City and business leaders identified their warehouse district as a place to have a variety of dining options, etc, and they made it happen. The Exchange District really has not much to offer in comparison.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

That is an overused excuse at this point. Yes, not every square inch of downtown will be revitalized in our lifetime, but for the downtown to not have one stretch of continuous shops, pubs, etc is embarrassing. The Old Market district in Omaha, as an example, has so many streets lined with pubs, shops, etc.

Yeah, in some ways this is a good measuring stick. As long as downtown Winnipeg lacks a stretch of at least two or three blocks with storefront retail, restaurants, cafes, etc. in the same way that exists in a place like Gimli, we can conclude that there is still work to be done.

Who knows, perhaps this development at The Forks will finally get us to that point....

[Urban recluse]

I sincerely hope so.

[GreyGarden]

I 100% think that Winnipeg's downtown and exchange still require an insane amount of work and revitalization. Although I do recognize the progress the city has made and is making.

I'm optimistic about the downtowns future though. I sort of view revitalization in terms of a exponential growth graph where improvements come slowly in the beginning(which is where I think we are, late to the party compared to other larger cities) but gains should increase more rapidly over time. It's anyone's guess how many years away we are from seeing more rapid revitalization. Maybe 5, 10, 15, I honestly have no clue.

It's been said many times but I think the key to the area is people, that's why I love the concept of this project. I believe that once our downtown is at 30,000 residents getting another 5000 will take way less time than what it currently takes. Revitalization will follow with people.

[WolselyMan]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Trust me. I get it. It's the whole point. Using the natural attraction and livability of the green space at the Forks to create an urban neighbourhood. We completely agree. It's what makes the opportunity so great.

Do you know the difference between New York, Vancouver and Winnipeg? Density.

The Forks is a large enough green space (along with all the other parks I mentioned) to achieve what you are talking about. Have you ever been to Bonnycastle Park? Probably not. Nobody has. But it's beautiful. How about Upper Fort Garry park. Ever seen anyone in there?

We don't need more green space downtown to be a catalyst for population growth. We need population growth to fill all the green space we have.

The Forks is a very unique opportunity. A lot of people will live there that would not otherwise choose to live two blocks away at SkyCity. The developers lining up to develop there understand this. It is a market that is not available in the rest of downtown. If they cancelled Railside all those developers wouldn't start looking for parking lots across the tracks to fill. The attraction to them. The catalyst. Is that it is at the Forks. The same attraction that will bring buyers for their units.

The green space at the Forks is disconnected from the city. The only way to engage it is to bring the city to the Forks.

Why can't the Forks be what it is. Why would it be better if it was bigger? Has anyone ever thought the Forks isn't big enough? The Forks itself wants to have people living there to make the market sustainable and bring people there permanently instead of being a drive up destination.

I share your dream of filling all the parking lots downtown but I don't think putting a forest in the parking lots at the Forks will help achieve that. I do think that 1000 people living at the Forks, many of which would otherwise be living in the suburbs, is a greater catalyst for filling those other lots. People don't live downtown because nobody lives downtown. Not because there's not enough parks.

This is an opportunity to redefine urban living in winnipeg that can not be achieved in the Exchange or in a tower on a parking lot. It could make people think urban living is attractive. The existing park space is the catalyst for that. We don't need more. We need to exploit that catalyst. Just like they did in New York.

I get the argument that the area is a piece of low hanging fruit. It's an already vibrant that we area we can strategically use as a "home base" to radiate redevelopment outwards into the rest of downtown. It's such an obvious opportunity that it sounds like a broken match to even suggest that we should reserve it for parkspace.

But what I'm pointing out is that European villages, mid rise developments and high rise condos can be built on any patch of concrete. A large, uninterrupted and continuous expanse of urban greenery cannot; and this is our ONLY chance we'll ever get to create a space like that, before it will be lost forever. Sure, there may not be demand for a large park like that today, but what about in the future? What about in 20 years, 30 years, or 50? A lot can change in that small amount of time. The population of downtown Winnipeg could have octupled by that time. Do you still think bonnycastle & steve juba park, plus the mild greenery at the forks today will be enough for them? Will they think that? Or will they regret that we didn't seize the opportunity when we had the chance?

Saying that Bonny Castle & Steven Juba park + the existing greenery at the forks is enough for downtown Winnipeg is kinda like saying that sunset beach, Devonian Harbor, David Lam and Nelson park is enough greenspace for downtown Vancouver. Technically true, as in the ground beneath everyone's feet will still be solid, grocery shelves will be regularly filled with food, hospitals will be top of the notch and you'll still be able to watch your netflix shows in your condo suite. But the area will seize being one of the most unique urban centers in all of North America that offers urbanites an amenity that very few cities in the world can brag that they have - a full fledged piece of nature right in your backyard.

And if you wanna convince NIMBY card carrying, aesthetically sensitive suburbanites who just moved into their new home in Waverly West that urban living is nothing to be afraid of, you'll need all the greenspace you can get to fully win them over, Because nothing scares them off more than the claustrophobic thought of being trapped in a concrete jungle.

[esquire]

^ With the construction of large-scale projects like Shaw Park and CMHR that take up much of the land in the area, I'd say that the ship has sailed on The Forks as a kind of natural recreation park. You'll never duplicate anything resembling Central Park or Stanley Park in that little strip of land along the railway tracks... it would be the most half-assed natural park there is. It's an urban area and there is no point in pretending otherwise.

[Cyro]

^Abundance of green space..


https://www.gov.mb.ca

..Although noise from the rail line on parcel 4 could very well play a role in the future..Well that lot will be empty for over a decade or more if were following the timetable..

[Urban recluse]

Now, about being able to use that river walk in the spring...

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Things are improving, for sure. But come on... who could really stand there with a straight face and say that downtown Winnipeg of 2017 is wildly different than downtown Winnipeg of 15 or 20 years ago? I certainly couldn't. The challenges that existed then still remain now.

Compared to the accelerated change witnessed in Canadian cities larger than Winnipeg over that timeframe, we've barely budged. Some areas within downtown have certainly changed... the Exchange being perhaps the best example. But on the whole? Barely.

I think the biggest difference, although anecdotal, is that it's actually "cool" to go downtown again. While there were definitely always some good restaurants and bars downtown, there is infinitely more to do now, and the perceptions/feeling toward downtown has changed. While you could write that off as hearsay, I'm confident the Chamber or Tourism has some hard facts to back up investment and spending changes in downtown.

Definitely a lot of work to go in terms of residents, but we're trending in the right direction.

Originally Posted by bryanscott

If the city were to mandate that trains slow down well before the curve, the issue could be easily resolved.

Unfortunately the city has absolutely no say in that. Federal government would have to make a change to the law as to how fast they can go inside urban areas. CN likely wouldn't listen to a request either as it would cost them money.

Originally Posted by oftheMoon

Beyond the bricks and mortar there is a fundamental shift in people wanting to come downtown for a variety of reasons in numbers that we didn't see 10 - 15 years ago. I find it hard hard to argue the changes that have been made which drastically improve the quality of being there.

Yup. It's definitely a much better environment to be in then 15-20 years ago. While we may be moving exceptionally slow, I think it was a chicken or egg scenario in terms of people wanting to live downtown, and now with lots of public investment in public spaces, the tides seem to be turning.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Now, about being able to use that river walk in the spring...

There's a problem?


TorontoSun.com


Solution: Increase the elevation of the river walkways and infrastructure. Technically feasible, extremely costly..Back to square one.How many reports and promises have been made over the years?

[Urban recluse]

It is a major amenity for downtown. How can it not be fixed?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

It is a major amenity for downtown. How can it not be fixed?

Because clearly city council and other government entities fail to recognize its importance.