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  #461  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 6:47 PM
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Does is really matter. Having said that the Whitecaps are not worth 35 million dollars. I always laugh when I see that. Just because the expansion fee was 35 million, doesn`t mean the team will ever even come close to being worth that. At this moment there are only 2-3 teams who are profitable in MLS. Secondly considering the Lions and CFL TV ratings blow MLS ratings out of the water, and the with the Grey Cup coming to town this year it`s way too premature to anoint the Whitecaps bigger than the Lions.

Also, `sellout` was a bit loose considering they tarped off 5000 seats. If they felt they could sustain 27500 people they would have sold those seats.
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  #462  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post

But any rational analysis of the franchise value or sponsorship deals shows that the Whitecaps are on a different level from the Lions.
Well, let's examine just how "rational" your analysis is. Remember, we were talking about popularity (or fan base).

Therefore, the rationality of your analysis depends upon the hypothesis that if Team A has a higher franchise value than Team B, then Team A is more popular than Team B.

So let's put this hypothesis to the test:

1) Surely you do not dispute that if Team A has higher attendance and higher TV ratings than Team B, then Team A is more popular than Team B. For it would be absurd to say that a team which is attended by less people and watched by less people is more popular than a team which is attended by more people and watched by more people.

2) Thus, if your hypothesis is true, then it cannot be the case that a team with a lower franchise value can have higher attendance and higher TV ratings than a team with a higher franchise value.

3) Therefore, if it is the case that a team with a lower franchise value can have higher attendance and higher TV ratings than a team with a higher franchise value, then by necessity your hypothesis is not true.

Now, for no particular reason, let's take FC Dallas, which, as of 2008, had a purported franchise value of more than $39 million:

In 2008, FC Dallas had an average attendance of 13,000.

During the 2010 MLS Cup (which was the biggest, most widely-televised game it has ever played in), FC dallas drew an audience of 750,000 viewers.

Now, let's compare the above with the BC Lions, a team whose franchise value is a miniscule fraction of FC Dallas':

In 2008, the BC Lions had an average attendance of 35,000.

During the 2010 Western Division Semi-Final, the BC Lions drew an average audience of 2 million and a peak audience of 3.3 million. BC Lions regular season games drew an average audience of 1 million viewers. [The CFL championship game, in stark contrast to the MLS Cup, usually attracts an average audience of more than 6 million and a peak audience of more than 14 million (more than 43% of Canada's population).]

As you can see, the BC Lions have massively higher attendance and massively higher TV ratings than FC Dallas, despite the latter having a vastly greater franchise value than the former. And this is pretty much the case when you compare the BC Lions with all the MLS franchises.

Therefore, it is the case that a team with a lower franchise value can have higher attendance and higher TV ratings than a team with a higher franchise value. In other words, it is the case that a team with a lower franchise value can be more popular (or have a larger fan base) than a team with a higher franchise value.

Therefore, by logical necessity, your hypothesis cannot be true.

And therefore, your analysis is not rational.

Q.E.D.

Of course, none of this would come as a surprise to anyone with a modicum of knowledge of franchise economics and what really determines a franchise's "value" or franchise fees.

Last edited by Prometheus; Mar 20, 2011 at 10:34 PM.
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  #463  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Urban_Genius View Post
Also, `sellout` was a bit loose considering they tarped off 5000 seats. If they felt they could sustain 27500 people they would have sold those seats.
I found this to be very odd. Surely they could have sold those seats for at least the home opener. I assume they will be at 22,500 all season an Empire?

I would also presume that "lower bowl only" or whatever they are planning to sell in BC Place is closer to 27,500 than 22,500. Why not aim for high-20s?

That being said, I've heard Lenarduzzi and others reference "making the Whitecaps ticket a hot commodity" many times, so I'm sure it's all marketing.

The biggest boost to the MLS in Canada will be TSN's coverage. They have done wonders for the Lions and the CFL over the last several years. I'm sure there is room for 2 non-hockey sports in town.

As a Lions' season ticket holder, I can tell you the Whitecaps were heavily marketed to us. So we should all just get along...
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  #464  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Urban_Genius View Post
Does is really matter. Having said that the Whitecaps are not worth 35 million dollars. I always laugh when I see that. Just because the expansion fee was 35 million, doesn`t mean the team will ever even come close to being worth that. At this moment there are only 2-3 teams who are profitable in MLS. Secondly considering the Lions and CFL TV ratings blow MLS ratings out of the water, and the with the Grey Cup coming to town this year it`s way too premature to anoint the Whitecaps bigger than the Lions.

Also, `sellout` was a bit loose considering they tarped off 5000 seats. If they felt they could sustain 27500 people they would have sold those seats.
You have to look at the 2 teams that are profitable in 2009. 1 is Toronto FC. The highest MLS attendance at BMO Field was 22,108 (to see Thierry Henry visit). Vancouver's first game had an attendance of 22,592. Our fist game, in March, beat out TFC's biggest game, in August when one of the superstars of soccer played.

The other profitable team is Seattle. Seattle's average attendance in 2009 was 30,943, and 36,173 in 2010. Seattle played Barcelona in front of a crowd of 66,848. After 2009 they increased capacity for MLS games to 35,700. I believe the Sounders sold over 30,000 season tickets for this year, higher than the average attendance at Lions games. So if you are to compare the Lions to MLS, why not Seattle?

Toronto and Seattle also each command $4 million per year in shirt sponsorships, a value Bell matched with the Whitecaps. LA's is worth almost $5 million, and Red Bull has sunk a small fortune into owning New York.

It remains to be seen the Whitecaps can keep up the average attendance, but as a city I think we have a lot in common with Toronto and Seattle. And sponsors seem to be valuing Vancouver near the top of the league. With much of the cost of the stadium being covered by PAVCO and sponsors lining up to do business with the Whitecaps the future looks bright.

Does this mean they are more popular than the Lions, right now? In terms of pure numbers, attendance, tickets, and money, no I don't think so. In terms of buzz and potential, yes.

TSN has bought national rights to MLS games, giving MLS the same kind of national attention as the CFL. While the CFL will dominate over MLS in pure numbers for the next few years, you can't ignore the growth potential of MLS. Right now it is about getting in on the ground floor of the next big thing. Would you rather invest advertising dollars in a diluted football market, or invest in growth? Who are the BC Lion sponsors? meh. Who are the Whitecap sponsors? Bell and Budwiser. Why do I know that? It's all over the news.

I went into a liquor store the other day and there was a virtually untouched display of BC Lion drinks. But I can't find a Whitecaps scarf anywhere to save my life.

You also have to look at the regional market. In the NW, you have Seattle and now Portland and Vancouver. This local rivalry can feed off itself creating a very positive environment for soccer growth in the NW. Much like how football is huge in the parries (and the Lions feed of that buzz) MLS can be that in the pacific NW. The Whitecaps, Sounders and Timber each have more season ticket holders than most other teams have average attendance.

In terms of pure numbers, there will probably be more Lions fans, especially throughout the province as a whole. But when you break it down to a more metropolitan Vancouver base, it will be a lot more even. Then you have to look at which group will spend more money, not just on game tickets, but merchandise of the teams, and more importantly on the sponsors. And I think this is where the Whitecaps start to move into the #2 spot. The BC Lions will still be BC's #2 team of choice, but the Whitecaps will be Vancouver's #2 team of choice. And I think that is why sponsors value the Whitecaps. Soccer markets itself towards a broad base of people, from multiple ethnic groups, social groups, and income levels. The CFL isn't as inclusive, relying largely on rednecks and hicks. The MLS is urban, the CFL is rural.

However, Vancouver is a bandwagon town. The Lions have survived here for over 50 years. The NBA left town, baseball never made it big, and even the Canucks have had years of poor attendance. If the Whitecaps can't produce a good, entertaining product, and the Lions can, expect the buzz to fizzle.
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  #465  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 1:30 AM
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Is this for real, a ramshackle debate based on attendance figures from 30 years ago? That's all in the distant past in a time that had much different demographics and a badly managed league in the NASL. The current Caps club, league, and sport and how popular it will be is hypothetical as they've only played one match. So this current debate on the subject is rather pointless and all your left with is subjective comments and pointless stats. It's probably best to debate popularity via attendance at the end of the year.


What a match, what a day!

The weather magically turned out great.


#Winning


MLS boss Garber, Premier Clark, Nash. Not sure about those drums.


Steve Nash sits in the stands. True football fan.


Eric Hassli scores MLS Whitecaps FC first goal!


Will Eric Hassli be a local sport icon?


Southsiders! 500 of them marched to the stadium from local pub


pics by Mark Sagar - Special to The Province. Les Bazso, PNG. Andy Clark, Reuters.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Photos+Whitecaps+Toronto/4472424/story.html
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  #466  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 1:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Yume-sama View Post
Those video side boards were really cool. Did they exist in real life or was that some TV trick?
They were real.

And looking at other MLS highlights from opening day in other cities, not every stadium has the video boards along the pitch margins. Dunno what that says about the Whitecaps but I found it impressive in the sense that they are showing to us they have made investments to elevate the in-game experience above Swangard and minor league soccer.

And as for this whole #2 argument (it's hardly a debate)....let's focus on how to keep both teams successful and perhaps unite together and make BC Place/Empire Field a better sports experience than at Rogers Arena. Certainly having been at the inaugural game, I have had more fun there than at any other time at a Canucks game. Not saying I didn't enjoy myself at a Canucks game but the fan involvement kept me engaged at all times during yesterday's game. I hope the season ticket holders and the Southsiders can help our soccer fan traditions grow.
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  #467  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 2:13 AM
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Those pitch-side LED boards are quite common all over the world. Premier clubs like Arsenal have them go right around the pitch though, where the Caps, Home Depot Ctr in LA, or Red Bull Arena in NJ just have them on half the pitch for the tv shot.

I'd expect those Southsiders numbers to treble within a couple years. Once that whole south stand gets into unison singing and chants it's going to be quite the spectacle. Then hopefully the whole stadium!
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  #468  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 2:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Overground View Post
Those pitch-side LED boards are quite common all over the world. Premier clubs like Arsenal have them go right around the pitch though, where the Caps, Home Depot Ctr in LA, or Red Bull Arena in NJ just have them on half the pitch for the tv shot.

I'd expect those Southsiders numbers to treble within a couple years. Once that whole south stand gets into unison singing and chants it's going to be quite the spectacle. Then hopefully the whole stadium!
Yeah, I didn't pay attention to see if the video boards ran behind the goal ends though. i'll try to catch that in the video highlights.

i'm excited. I've always wanted to experience a true soccer match atmosphere. I don't think we're there yet but good start I'd say. I want to see more huge banners and flags. I want our stands to look intimidating.
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  #469  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 2:31 AM
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Being from Winnipeg I don't know what kind of marketing the Lions do in Van city but I wouldn't say the cfl is rural.The cfl has improved somewhat it's marketing from 10 years ago, however that is mostly because of the great job tsn has done for them. There is virtually no off season cfl marketing at all and there seems to be very little to no outreach to the growing immigrant communties in Canada's cfl centres.A good comparisson is that the CFL is the Tim Hortons crowd while soccer is the Starbucks crowd both are growing and vibrant but their brands are totally different. If that dallas mls franchis value is $39 million for 13,000 average attendance and very small tv ratings than shouldn't the lions value be $70 to 80 million.
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  #470  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 8:18 AM
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Don't know where to put this article, but thought I'd share it with people here.

Vancouver being Canada's best sports town?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/art...claims-title-of-canada-s-top-sports-town

What do you guys think?
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  #471  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 8:44 AM
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I don't think we're very close... I mean... Toronto has major league teams in soccer, basketball, hockey, baseball, and football too. It remains to be seen whether we can get the two other sports (basketball and baseball) because they both also seem to be somewhat popular in some demographics. =S
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  #472  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 9:38 AM
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Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
I don't think we're very close... I mean... Toronto has major league teams in soccer, basketball, hockey, baseball, and football too. It remains to be seen whether we can get the two other sports (basketball and baseball) because they both also seem to be somewhat popular in some demographics. =S
yeah. i understand what you mean. that's why i found the article a bit strange. we have major league teams in soccer (mls), and hockey (nhl), and we lost one in basketball (nba). i think vancouver will get the nba back down the road, but pro baseball - i don't know if vancouver will ever get a pro baseball team here. the demand may not be there (at least, with no salary cap, no way vancouver team survives here). i consider the following to be major league sports: nba, nhl, mls (highest in north america at least; nothing in comparison to epl, though), nfl, and mlb. i don't consider the cfl to be north american major league, big time sport.
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  #473  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 2:12 PM
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If that dallas mls franchis value is $39 million for 13,000 average attendance and very small tv ratings than shouldn't the lions value be $70 to 80 million.
No, not necessarily. The entire point is that "franchise values" and "franchise fees" have almost nothing to do with actual attendance figures and actual TV ratings (i.e., fan base). And the entire MLS demonstrates this perfectly.

We already saw that FC Dallas's fan base and popularity are miniscule compared to the BC Lions, even though FC Dallas has vastly superior corporate deals and a vastly superior franchise value.

But FC Dallas is not unique. LA Galaxy, for example, is purported to be worth more than $100 million, yet their attendance and TV ratings are significantly inferior to the BC Lions.

The average attendance for the LA Galaxy is about 20,000. When playing at BC Place, the BC Lions, by contrast, averaged about 35,000.

With respect to TV ratings, a BC Lions' regular season game in 2010 drew a larger TV audience than the 2009 MLS Cup, which featured the LA Galaxy. And in last year's CFL western division semi-final, the BC Lions drew an audience 3 times larger than the audience that watched the LA Galaxy in the 2009 MLS championship game.

According to every rational metric of fan base, the BC Lions are significantly superior to the LA Galaxy, even though the LA Galaxy has corporate deals and naming rights worth 10 times more than the BC Lions.

Hence, the argument, which some posters are making, that the Whitecaps' superior corporate deals and naming rights "prove" that their fan base is superior to the BC Lions is without any rational foundation and flies in the face of every relevant fact.

It is technically possible that the Whitecaps could acquire a larger fan base than the BC Lions in the future. But no one has yet provided a rational argument to support the assertion that such an achievement is inevitable. Pointing to historical precedent doesn't work because even in their glory days the Whitecaps were not as popular as the BC Lions. Pointing to superior corporate deals and franchise fees doesn't work because corporate deals and franchise fees in the MLS are not determined by actual fan base or popularity.

All that said, I wish the Whitecaps the very best and, from what I saw, Saturday's game was an excellent start. Assuming the MLS as a whole continues to survive, I think that the Whitecaps have the potential to do quite well due to a relatively healthy soccer fanbase in the Lower Mainland and natural rivalries between two of MLS's most well-supported franchises: Toronto and Seattle. I hope that's the case because the more dynamic a professional sports scene Vancouver has, the more interesting and prosperous Vancouver will be.
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  #474  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 4:39 PM
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The game was really amazing and I have to admit I never had so much fun at a sporting event. When Hassli scored his first goal, I (with the crowd) was so excited, we all jumped in the air. Unfortunately, I had a beer in my hand and accidentally sprayed my neighbour!!!

Thank god for the amazing weather. if we had to actually wear the ponchos instead of using them as projectiles, I'm sure the atmosphere would of been a lot different.
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  #475  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 5:23 PM
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I was also there and had a great time. I'm already looking forward to their next match.

In case anyone is interested, here's the Southsiders' songbook...

http://vancouversouthsiders.ca/songs.html
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  #476  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 10:48 PM
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The national TV ratings are in for the Whitecaps' inaugural game against Toronto, Canada's largest television market: Whitecaps/Toronto: Not A Ratings Hit

Whitecaps: Distant third.

Last edited by Prometheus; Mar 21, 2011 at 11:11 PM.
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  #477  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
The national TV ratings are in for the Whitecaps' inaugural game against Toronto, Canada's largest television market: Whitecaps/Toronto: Not A Ratings Hit
that's good for the lions.

the CFL has been around a longer time, too. the MLS is relatively new. i think the league is gonna catch on with fans across north america. it'll never compare to the EPL, but then again, the CFL will never be compared to the NFL. so different leagues, and different styles. I want both the Lions and the 'Caps to do very well, in every aspect of their business, so that it gives Vancouver better opportunities in the long run, for perhaps, more professional franchises coming to the town.
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  #478  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
The national TV ratings are in for the Whitecaps' inaugural game against Toronto, Canada's largest television market: Whitecaps/Toronto: Not A Ratings Hit

Whitecaps: Distant third.
the rest of canada does not care about MLS.

Once montreal gets in, and maybe ottawa a few years later, and those numbers will change.

give it time


also, on a side note.... i have friends who never watched a complete soccer game on TV until last weekend. those who watched enjoyed it.
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  #479  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2011, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Vancity View Post
Don't know where to put this article, but thought I'd share it with people here.

Vancouver being Canada's best sports town?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/art...claims-title-of-canada-s-top-sports-town

What do you guys think?
I think there's some merit to this article. Vancouver has hosted some major sporting events recently, not to mention the Olympics, the city has the best hockey team in the NHL right now, the BC Lions have also done well in recent year, the Whitecaps are off to a great start on and off the pitch and Vancouver will likely be the primary venue for the FIFA Women's World Cup.

So it's not just about the number of franchises here, but if the NBA came back this city would have a very busy sports scene. And I'm starting to think the NBA could work here; with NBA and NHL seasons being in the Fall/Winter and MLS and CFL in the Spring/Summer the sports market wouldn't be over crowded. If a new NBA team is run like Whitecaps with killer marketing they would have a good chance.
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  #480  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2011, 12:23 AM
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I seem to remember hearing similar debates about which team will be #2 months ago here. Why are we still arguing about this ? Can't we just be happy that we got another professional sports team and they played beautifully today ? This could be the start of something big with regards to other professional sports teams coming to Vancouver as well.
Very well said! We should be excited that there are now even more options when it comes to sports in the local market and can now set our collective sights to gaining even more. If anything, having 2 teams will force each of them to try to compete against each other in efforts to gain an edge in the marketplace. Conversely, they could also collaborate their efforts i.e a new multipurpose practice facility and/or field house that could serve as a great regional asset for the general public. That can only be good news for fans of both teams
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