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  #461  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2012, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by hexrae View Post
Idle no more encapsulates more than Treaty Rights. I honestly believe the time has come for change.

It's a double entendre. On one side, it's a protest against the current state of affairs.

On the other, it's an affirmation one makes that they will no longer do nothing. That they will now live, learn, work and strive for more. Isn't that what everyone wants? Engage us back in a positive and meaningful manner, no more need to suppress.

Or I'm off base, and if so I'll go pile in my 2009 Chevrolet Cobalt and take off. In only a couple more days, it'll be 4 years old. Better get on old man Harper to "buy me a new one", right rrskylar?

Your right time has come for change, the Kapyong decision was a step in the right direction, I would suggest an even bigger step would be the abolition of the INAC. With that private ownership on all First Nations land, self taxation and self government.
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  #462  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by khabibulin View Post
Federal Government has a formula for payments in lieu of taxes (PILT) for federal land to provide a replacement for municipal taxes. In fact there is a recent supreme court decision regarding Halifax claiming that the amount of PILT paid by the feds for the Halifax Citadel is way less than they should be paying. The supreme court sided with the City and this wiill have implications for the amount of PILT paid by the feds across the country.
Reserves aren't federally owned land in the same way that Halifax Citadel is, though. The reserve won't actually be in Manitoba (it will be separate) so no money will be given to any level of government.

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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
Well, see, I think it's time for a change too...but I want change that most aboriginal people would never accept.
Like what?

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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
In 2012, separate aboriginal communities and rights really make no sense in multicultural Canada. They need to go away. There is no reason that aboriginal cultures and languages cannot survive in Canadian society. I mean, look at places like Toronto and Montreal. There are so many cultural events there based in so many different places all of the time. Aboriginal people are really no different in the context of the present. The current system is really holding people back. It's holding back equality, opportunity, and acceptance.
You argue that the various government bills at the centre of this protest aren't taking away treaty rights, and then you propose virtually doing away with the treaties by removing almost everything they guarantee aboriginal people.

The treaties are international agreements between sovereign states. Legislation like the Indian Act unilaterally alters them. I don't understand why so many people have difficulty understanding this. The current system is only holding aboriginals back because the Indian Act, developed and imposed by one member of a two member agreement, is holding them back.

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Originally Posted by Treesplease View Post
The most disappointing thing about FN issues is the fact that no one has a desire to address the issue in a meaningful way - both government and FN leadership.
One of the big controversies within this movement is that AFN has known about the measures in these bills for months now and it wasn't until grassroots citizens took a look at them that protests started. AFN leadership saw all of these abuses but did nothing to lobby on the behalf of their people until it was pretty much too late. There is a lot of anger within FN communities against their leadership, but that never gets picked up by the media because intra-FN politics don't get discussed in mainstream news. Only their interactions with the Federal and Provincial governments is reported.

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Originally Posted by Treesplease View Post
I am waiting for the day that some politician (doesn't have to be fed to get the ball rolling) gets disgusted enough to start asking for a serious investigation into the FN issue.
There have been dozens of those reports. Not just conducted in Canada; during the repatriation of the Constitution, the UK conducted investigations and proposed solutions as well. Most of them find roughly the same results and give roughly the same recommendations, but the government doesn't act on them.

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Originally Posted by Treesplease View Post
FN leaders will have to be at the table because they are just as responsible for the issue as anyone.
First Nations leaders are at the table. That is why Teresa Spence is in Ottawa. First Nations leaders were at the table in January when the government listened for a little bit but then did nothing.

The Indian Act really ties the hands of First Nations leaders. What their governments can do to solve problems is very, very limited to a rigid framework designed by the Federal government.

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Originally Posted by Treesplease View Post
Taxation will have to be addressed and I'm not talking about income tax (although that would be nice and will happen eventually). As I understand things (which could be wrong), FN communities get a fixed amount of funding from the federal government for housing and infrastructurte (% of expected cost) with the expectation that the band contribute the balance. Problem being most bands have no capacity to raise funds to provide the balance because they will not use taxation. So the net effect is partially completed houses and infrastructure and no incentive for individuals to complete or upgrade the houses as the nicer their house the greater the likelihood they will be tossed out by the band the next time there is an election and the chief changes and they want to give the house to someone else.
Bands can't use taxation. If a First Nations decides it wants to allow private land ownership and use taxation to raise revenue, they lose all treaty rights. All federal funding, the "free education", the status cards, everything, is gone. They simply become an autonomous, ethnic enclave within a province. Bands cannot tax income. Only the Federal and Provincial governments are allowed to do so. Bands raise their money through rent, fees, and business enterprises and partnerships. Many First Nations in Ontario, for example, run a corporation called Wasaya Group, which operates in a wide variety of industries (primarily air travel, Wasaya Airways is the main regional airline in NWO) and brings in much revenue for those communities, though still not enough for them to really prosper. The communities that are ownership members of the company are doing better than those that don't have a business bringing in revenue. Part of the reason goods are so expensive on reserves (other than the fact that flying in groceries in small batches on propeller planes is extremely expensive) is because that is a method by which a band can raise revenue.

Also, all budgets for First Nations get approved by INAC before the money is released. Anything a First Nation spends money on is approved by the Federal government, including band leader's salaries and arenas.

The Indian Act and INAC are the main problems. In Northern Ontario, INAC is by far the largest government office. It's a gigantic bureaucracy. The largest federal government building in Northwestern Ontario is INAC's office on Fort William First Nation.
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  #463  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2012, 12:55 AM
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Actually Vid, you're quite wrong. All land in Canada, even unceded land, is under the care of the Crown. Reserves are only sovereign within that context and framework. Misinformation like you've provided serves no one. Aboriginal treaty rights exist only because Canada recognizes them. No one in government has proposed changing that. I think it's time that aboriginal people looked at the reality, and joined the rest of the poulation. The current situation isn't serving anyone.
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  #464  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2012, 3:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
Actually Vid, you're quite wrong. All land in Canada, even unceded land, is under the care of the Crown. Reserves are only sovereign within that context and framework. Misinformation like you've provided serves no one. Aboriginal treaty rights exist only because Canada recognizes them. No one in government has proposed changing that. I think it's time that aboriginal people looked at the reality, and joined the rest of the poulation. The current situation isn't serving anyone.
You mean like treating everyone equally like in every other democratic nation. Former Grand Chief Ovide Mercredi once called Stephen Harper racist when Harper said all Canadians should be treated equally. Special treatment has served some in the First Nations community well.
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  #465  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2012, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
You mean like treating everyone equally like in every other democratic nation. Former Grand Chief Ovide Mercredi once called Stephen Harper racist when Harper said all Canadians should be treated equally. Special treatment has served some in the First Nations community well.
Well said sir, and I dont always agree on what you said.

I have had it with the hand outs for anyone, doesn't have to be the natives, but we give handouts to every minority now, the only minorities that SHOULD get handouts are disabled people. No matter if you are Blue, Black, Brown, or White, you are all the same people in the same country.

If this keeps up , I want my White persons treaty card please
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  #466  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2012, 10:58 PM
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Well said sir, and I dont always agree on what you said.

I have had it with the hand outs for anyone, doesn't have to be the natives, but we give handouts to every minority now, the only minorities that SHOULD get handouts are disabled people. No matter if you are Blue, Black, Brown, or White, you are all the same people in the same country.

If this keeps up , I want my White persons treaty card please
Care to elaborate?
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  #467  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2012, 11:12 PM
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Care to elaborate?
Not before christmas, but I will be happy to after.
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  #468  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2012, 5:48 PM
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  #469  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2012, 5:56 PM
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Thanks for sharing Migs, this:

"deciphered This started as an objection to omnibus Bill C-45, which, among other things, calls for greater accountability from Indian Chiefs regarding their pay and how they spend their reserves' money. Keep that in mind the next time you see a Chief endorsing Idle No More."

I had my suspicion all along that Idle no More was merely the Chiefs getting others to do the dirty work of opposing the transparency bill (C-45) that many on reserves want, have called for and need. Of course the Chiefs and their immediate benefactors don't want it!
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  #470  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2013, 12:32 AM
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I've refrained from commenting on this issue in public because too many First Nations people I know are so gung-ho about it. But I read (can't remember where and too lazy to look it up) that the original idle No More orgnanizors have distanced themselves from the cause as their intent was to actually protest against their own leaders also.

The movement has been hi-jacked by the Chiefs, their supporters and too many grass roots First Nations people caught up in "pride" to actually comprehend what they're protesting. And to disagree is to be called a racist.
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  #471  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2013, 11:09 AM
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Regardless of how you feel about Idle No More, it's a feel good story amongst First Nations.

Why? It's created a sense of unity. First Nations is plural, there are many of us and there are times of division and disconnect. Even in today's interconnected world, it's hard to comprehend what's going on throughout the country. I've recently started a blog to centralize such news articles, so I can speak from experience here.

On the power of unity. Regardless of how you feel about these events, imagine the National pride one feels during the Olympics. Or as a hockey fan during the World Juniors (which I happen to be watching as I type this).

Has the Idle No More movement morphed into smorgasbord of issues? Certainly, even I can't agree with it all, or the actions of a few. I'd suggest this highlights the rather sad state of affairs though. This isn't a one question, one answer situation. Nobody knows how many questions there are, yet everyone has their own versions of answers.
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Last edited by hexrae; Jan 3, 2013 at 2:48 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #472  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2013, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Thanks for sharing Migs, this:

"deciphered This started as an objection to omnibus Bill C-45, which, among other things, calls for greater accountability from Indian Chiefs regarding their pay and how they spend their reserves' money. Keep that in mind the next time you see a Chief endorsing Idle No More."

I had my suspicion all along that Idle no More was merely the Chiefs getting others to do the dirty work of opposing the transparency bill (C-45) that many on reserves want, have called for and need. Of course the Chiefs and their immediate benefactors don't want it!
Bill C-27 - First Nations Financial Transparency Act
An Act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations

Bill C-45 - Jobs and Growth Act, 2012
A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measures
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  #473  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2013, 3:54 PM
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for one of my poll sci classes this semester I had to attend multiple house committee meetings on C-27 (my choice) for a report. All i will say is easterners are so disconnected from the actual state of aboriginal affairs in the west it is insane....they have no clue.
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  #474  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2013, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by hexrae View Post
Regardless of how you feel about Idle No More, it's a feel good story amongst First Nations.

Why? It's created a sense of unity. First Nations is plural, there are many of us and there are times of division and disconnect. Even in today's interconnected world, it's hard to comprehend what's going on throughout the country. I've recently started a blog to centralize such news articles, so I can speak from experience here.

On the power of unity. Regardless of how you feel about these events, imagine the National pride one feels during the Olympics. Or as a hockey fan during the World Juniors (which I happen to be watching as I type this).

Has the Idle No More movement morphed into smorgasbord of issues? Certainly, even I can't agree with it all, or the actions of a few. I'd suggest this highlights the rather sad state of affairs though. This isn't a one question, one answer situation. Nobody knows how many questions there are, yet everyone has their own versions of answers.

Maybe you should ask yourself who really is behind Idle No More and what the ulterior motive is, I'll tell you one thing it sure as hell isn't about the plight of those suffering on reserves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JWTotEc_XA

Last edited by rrskylar; Jan 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM.
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  #475  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2013, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
May you should ask yourself who really is behind Idle No More and what the ulterior motive is, I'll tell you one thing it sure as hell isn't about the plight of those suffering on reserves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JWTotEc_XA
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexrae View Post
Has the Idle No More movement morphed into smorgasbord of issues? Certainly, even I can't agree with it all, or the actions of a few. I'd suggest this highlights the rather sad state of affairs though. This isn't a one question, one answer situation. Nobody knows how many questions there are, yet everyone has their own versions of answers.
From the official Idle No More site

Quote:
The Chiefs have called for action and anyone who chooses can join with them, however this is not part of the Idle No More movement as the vision of this grassroots movement does not coincide with the visions of the Leadership. While we appreciate the individual support we have received from Chiefs and councelors, we have been given a clear mandate by the grassroots to work outside of the systems of government and that is what we will continue to do. We are not trying to have division amongst this movement! However Chief Nepinak stated, "we are behind the grassroots people". Please let others know
Source: http://idlenomore1.blogspot.ca/2012/...o-more-is.html

So, to re-iterate, I can't agree with it all, or the actions of a few. But, I'm not about to dismiss the movement entirely. There is merit to aspects of it, and a real opportunity to work together.

Perhaps this can be the start of the next phase? Perhaps not.
Assembly of First Nations National Chief Calls for Unity, Citizen-engagement and Treaty Meeting Between First Nations and Crown
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  #476  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2013, 7:05 PM
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[QUOTE=hexrae;5957812]





So, to re-iterate, I can't agree with it all, or the actions of a few. But, I'm not about to dismiss the movement entirely. There is merit to aspects of it, and a real opportunity to work together.

/QUOTE]

Agreed
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  #477  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2013, 1:07 AM
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The terroristic threats and blockades have to go. it does nothing to draw positive attention to the issues at all. Has the opposite affect.
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  #478  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2013, 3:34 AM
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The terroristic threats and blockades have to go. it does nothing to draw positive attention to the issues at all. Has the opposite affect.
Terroristic? Lol. I haven't seen such threats, but I'd imagine like with any movement there are extremists. Even the right of centre Tea Party movement had it's share.

I'd suggest though that Idle No More only started to receive the attention it's getting now due to the blockades. So there is/was merit to them.

We agree on the need to diversify tactics.
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  #479  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2013, 4:55 AM
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Terroristic? Lol. I haven't seen such threats, but I'd imagine like with any movement there are extremists. Even the right of centre Tea Party movement had it's share.

I'd suggest though that Idle No More only started to receive the attention it's getting now due to the blockades. So there is/was merit to them.

We agree on the need to diversify tactics.
I wouldn't go as far as say terrorists, but one only needs to go back 20 years and remember what happened in Quebec with the First Nations there. That was not a simple pow wow on portage and main, that was full out war in the making. When you have to call in the military, things are not right.

In saying that, I can see people getting caught up in this IDLE no more junk and actually resorting to this manner of attention as stated above. The rest of Canada, pink , blue , black and white people are sick of it. You want equal rights, well, no more tax breaks, no more free hand outs, no more school paid for, no more free cars, sleds, etc, etc.

I will offer this suggestion as our entire treaty system is utterly BROKEN.

We only need to look to the south of us and see how America deals with reserves, they at the start were brutal, I can attest to that. But now you see the reserves and I have been to many, they are CLEAN, well governed and they are self policed etc. The people in the reserve work. They down cry to the US goverment when they need a paycheck. They do not produce a kid every 18 years for that extra cash ( yes I know a coworker whos wife has now had 12 kids, the reason he says he does it, is so they have the extra cash, and he works no less. )

Let the goverment get into these reserves and sort them out, get rid of these usless chiefs that are only in it for themselves so they can have a big house and a caddy and let their people live in a shanty town in most cases. WE as Canadians need to govern these reservations money period, and just like Habitat for humanity, you want a house, well you help build the next one and so forth, nothing is free anymore. Time to let the people know it and let them learn it.

This will all take time , but maybe the younger gen will understand that it is better to work and govern yourself and pay taxes like the rest of canada, then it is to be looked down upon and live like they do now.

I would take great pride in a nation that our first people were at an equal lvl, just like we look at the French.

And if I see one more Canada flag upside down, I say FINE them, if this was the usa, that would be jail time.
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  #480  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2013, 7:10 AM
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the idea is to get peoples attention

theres more at stake then just native issues its about all of us we need to wake up to what the cons are doing in pure airigance to our country.
our land
our water
our resources
our home we share

i went to the new years rally and was blown away by the amazing energy it was alive...

so much so i wrote this.

no more idle

as i walk

towards the crowds

to gather

amongst all treaties peoples

all nations

all bound

to say

to speak

no more idle

as energies flood

in aura

beauty and all

shareing out loud

to say hello

we are

don’t ignore

to support

to support

our breathern

of all one

a nation devided a nation united

we slowly

awake to those

we squanders a time ago

times now

to wake

to shuve

aside

the ideas of past

to wake up

to say idle no more

in solidarity we rise

to protect our futures out health our lands

for all we must stand stand for mother earth

as shes un able to speak

speak we must

the caretakers ari
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