Calgary Public Transit II

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Here we go again... indeed interlining as far as the zoo is a factor strongly in favor of the Nose Creek alignment.

The cost savings by interlining to the Zoo is a factor in favour of the Nose Creek alignment, yes.

However, I don't think that limiting the future growth of BOTH the NE and the NC lines to be barely more than what we have now is in any way favourable to anyone planning the route. We already have problems downtown with handling more trains because of interlining. Interlining simply recreates the problem on 7th Ave once again that will be solved when the 8th Ave subway is built. Also, we would have twice as many trains servicing the WLRT as would be required, adding wear and tear, and increasing the cost of operation needlessly.

The SE LRT will already have a new right of way downtown, why not connect the NC LRT to the same right of way, saving the cost of building an additional right of way downtown, which will in turn, help even out the costs between building a Nose Creek alignment and a Centre Street alignment.

[RyLucky]

The North-Central Line has got to go with Centre Street alignment or not at all. This means continuing the SE LRT underground from 2nd St SW downtown all the way to north of 16th ave N. Obviously, the cost of this project will be huge, but adding a line to the 7th Avenue corridor cannot happen without severe limitations to capacity. The other option is tunnelling under the river around 3rd St SE to Edmonton trail, but this option complicates connections with other lines and service to the core, and would come at a cost comparable to Centre Street alignment. Continuity with the SE LRT is a major advantage of Centre St alignment.

I'm in favour of keeping the train at grade along Ctr St whenever it reduces cost and doesn't interfere with important cross streets. This includes most of the alignment north of 40th Ave, and part of the alignment between 16th Ave and 40th Ave.

What about a spur to the Airport and NE LRT? Imagine being able to hop on a C-train in Mackenzie Town, Inglewood, Stampede Park, or downtown and ride all the way to the airport without transferring.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

What about a spur to the Airport and NE LRT? Imagine being able to hop on a C-train in Mackenzie Town, Inglewood, Stampede Park, or downtown and ride all the way to the airport without transferring.

This is a thought I had as well (the other spur would be from Inglewood to 17th Avenue SE). Having a spur from 96th avenue to the Airport would be great for visitors who can catch the train at the Airport and ride to the station at 4th street SE, which is only two blocks from Stampede. If Stampede builds some hotel development on 12th avenue and Olympic Way (4th ST), this would be well connected to the airport and quite a boon to the Stampede hotel business.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Really, strongly in favour? I know we've been over this ground many times before but I just can't see it being a huge plus. I mean, supposing for the sake of argument that it wouldn't constrain capacity to something below a level we might one day want, there would still be an issue with short turning trains or massively excess capacity to the West LRT. Under the best scenario, interlining might be acceptable or adequate but it wouldn't be ideal. It would always be a sacrifice in exchange for cheaper cost.

When cheaper cost = billions of dollars... yeah, there are some sacrifices to be made.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

When cheaper cost = billions of dollars... yeah, there are some sacrifices to be made.

Okay. I just thought you were implying that interlining is better notwithstanding cost issues as opposed to interlining is better because of cost issues. I can understand the latter whereas I was lost thinking about the former. My bad.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

We already have problems downtown with handling more trains because of interlining. Interlining simply recreates the problem on 7th Ave once again that will be solved when the 8th Ave subway is built. Also, we would have twice as many trains servicing the WLRT as would be required, adding wear and tear, and increasing the cost of operation needlessly.

The SE LRT will already have a new right of way downtown, why not connect the NC LRT to the same right of way, saving the cost of building an additional right of way downtown, which will in turn, help even out the costs between building a Nose Creek alignment and a Centre Street alignment.

No. We. Don't.

The problem on 7th Ave won't be addressed by the 8th Ave subway because it is Calgary Transit's stated intention to eventually run both routes at greater frequencies than the combined routes on 7th Ave today. Unless or until 7th Ave is also grade separated the capacity constraints on 7th Ave will remain unchanged with or without interlining.

Even if what you propose were done, it wouldn't substantially equalize the costs because you still have to tunnel or bulldoze your way up Centre Street and then either keep going all the way to the ROW north of Beddington Trail or tunnel to Nose Creek at 64th Ave. Which is why a Centre Street alignment has been so decisively rejected over and over again. It is just a really, really bad idea.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Okay. I just thought you were implying that interlining is better notwithstanding cost issues as opposed to interlining is better because of cost issues. I can understand the latter whereas I was lost thinking about the former. My bad.

I wasn't really talking about interlining at all, although I generally favour interlining as a planning principle because it has the ability to reduce the need for transfers. I am saying when the cost difference between competing alternatives is in the billions of dollars sacrifices have to be made. What might seem the most desirable alternative might not be an alternative at all if faces insurmountable obstacles.

Interlining is just scheduling, it is neither good or bad. How it became the boogeyman around here baffles me.

[suburbia]

This is probably a *really* dumb idea and I'll get slammed for it, but here goes.

Has there been any consideration to actually grade separating the downtown LRT by elevating the tracks and integrating the stations with the already existent +15 network? In fact, with the West LRT you already have the train coming in above grade till just before the core, so why not just keep it up in the air and eliminate all of the issues relating to the traffic lights? If you do that with the SE line, it would actually help with the centre street crossing issue as you wouldn't have to tunnel for kilometers North of the river to get back up to grade. The issues with some condos recently also highlighted the complexities of digging deep in the core.

Again, it is just a silly thought.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I wasn't really talking about interlining at all, although I generally favour interlining as a planning principle because it has the ability to reduce the need for transfers. I am saying when the cost difference between competing alternatives is in the billions of dollars sacrifices have to be made. What might seem the most desirable alternative might not be an alternative at all if faces insurmountable obstacles.

Interlining is just scheduling, it is neither good or bad. How it became the boogeyman around here baffles me.

I agree with this, however most of my agreement is in forcing the tunnel up to an elevated system as soon as possible for Centre St, maybe even before 16th Ave.

That being said, I could be persuaded otherwise by a good business case analysis!

[DizzyEdge]

We just need to see a realistic estimate of the costs of each route, and what extra ridership and other benefits the central route might give us, and then decide if it's worth it.

[Wooster]

If a Nose creek NCLRT train went on 7th Ave where exactly would the train turn around to go back north???

It's moot anyway - for all intents and purposes the nose creek alignment option is dead.

[Policy Wonk]

It would run to the terminus of the West LRT.

Your boss can have his power play and draw a line wherever he likes, a future mayor and council who actually has to get the North Central LRT budgeted for and built will just put it right back along Nose Creek.

[andasen]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

It would run to the terminus of the West LRT.

Your boss can have his power play and draw a line wherever he likes, a future mayor and council who actually has to get the North Central LRT budgeted for and built will just put it right back along Nose Creek.

Which will forever leave NE calgary cursing their names, inner north-central having half done access, the west line over serviced (which will make them quite happy mind you) and a massive hole in the potencial ridership for the line.

Putting the line up nose has the lowest cost but it would be interesting which line would have the lowest net cost (with costs of reduced ridership of the NC line factored in and perhaps the reduction in ridership in the NE due to their frequencies being cut)

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

It would run to the terminus of the West LRT.

Your boss can have his power play and draw a line wherever he likes, a future mayor and council who actually has to get the North Central LRT budgeted for and built will just put it right back along Nose Creek.

The NC LRT will not run in the Nose Creek valley. It may cost more to put it up Centre Street, which may mean that it has to wait a few more years before it starts, but interlining it with the NE is a non-starter, Period.

20 years from now, when the NE line is at capacity even running 4 car trains, due to significant growth in the NE, you're telling me that some future council is going to say to the NE that they are going to cut capacity of the NE line so that they can build the NC line? Essentially, the city would be spending a billion of today's dollars to build a line that wouldn't get any more people downtown. The notion is frankly, completely bizarre. The alternative is to build the line in Nose Creek, but built a separate ROW into downtown, rather than interlining with the NE. However, as I've said, that eats up at least most of the cost advantage to going into Nose Creek in the first place.

I should say that the only chance that the NC line does get built in Nose Creek (interlining with the NE line) is if no NC line is built until after the life expectancy of the new 7th Ave platforms, and the city has already decided to tunnel the NE- W line under 7th Ave. If the line was completely grade separated, it could probably handle two lines on it, a train coming to each station every minute to a minute and a half. However, there should be at least 30 years of life expectancy left in the current 7th Ave platforms, and I really think that the NC area will have LRT before then.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Wooster

If a Nose creek NCLRT train went on 7th Ave where exactly would the train turn around to go back north???

It's moot anyway - for all intents and purposes the nose creek alignment option is dead.

What was this decision based on? How can it be so decisively made when so many of the facts around it are yet to be determined (as dizzyedge pointed out right above your post).

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

I should say that the only chance that the NC line does get built in Nose Creek (interlining with the NE line) is if no NC line is built until after the life expectancy of the new 7th Ave platforms, and the city has already decided to tunnel the NE- W line under 7th Ave. If the line was completely grade separated, it could probably handle two lines on it, a train coming to each station every minute to a minute and a half. However, there should be at least 30 years of life expectancy left in the current 7th Ave platforms, and I really think that the NC area will have LRT before then.

I have always argued 7th Ave will have to be grade separated even if no North Central LRT of any alignment is ever built. Calgary Transit can't operate their peak headways on 7th Ave today - yet it is their stated intention to operate both the 201 and 202 at greater frequencies than today's combined traffic on 7th Ave. This is impossible even without interlining on 7th. So yes, by the time a Nose Creek LRT begins construction 7th ave will be grade separated.

Perhaps the redundant C-Train platforms can then be re-purposed as art galleries.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

What was this decision based on? How can it be so decisively made when so many of the facts around it are yet to be determined (as dizzyedge pointed out right above your post).

There was quite a bit of consultation done last year that determined that people (even those north of Beddington) were strongly against Nose Creek. I suppose service that doesn't actually serve a location where anyone lives or works wasn't all that appealing.

Transit planners also strongly favour a more central route for many of the operational challenges a Nose Creek alignment would bring. Interlining is extremely challenging, as would terminating at the Zoo station. The NE line would never have the capacity to accomodate a transfer of trains full of people onto other trains already full of people.

I suppose we should never say never on Nose Creek, because of potential challenges on a Centre Street or Edm Trail alignment, but there are many strikes against it.

My prediction: it'll be a centre street alignment - an extension of the SELRT, run up a bridge across the river and into the bluff, emerge from underground somewhere around 20th avenue N, and then run at grade in a separatede ROW the rest of the way (save for some underground sections at major intersections like Mckight and 64th). SELRT-NCLRT will be low floor.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I have always argued 7th Ave will have to be grade separated even if no North Central LRT of any alignment is ever built. Calgary Transit can't operate their peak headways on 7th Ave today - yet it is their stated intention to operate both the 201 and 202 at greater frequencies than today's combined traffic on 7th Ave. This is impossible even without interlining on 7th. So yes, by the time a Nose Creek LRT begins construction 7th ave will be grade separated.

Perhaps the redundant C-Train platforms can then be re-purposed as art galleries.

7th ave may need to be grade separated one day, but going to 4 car trains and getting rid of the interlining basically allows for a tripling of current capacity on the NE line. That should have enough capacity for the four planned stations yet to come, and some substantial densification along the existing line. Perhaps even further extension up to the Cross Iron Mills area. Now, CT may want to increase frequency to provide better service, but how much would they be willing to pay for that if it's not needed overall capacity wise?

After the S - NW line is moved into a subway under 8th, 7th ave should provide enough capacity for the NE- W line for 30-40 years, at least. There may be other reasons to want to move the line underground, but the earliest I can see that happening is at the end of the new stations' useful life. The suburban stations would be around 60 years old at that time too, so maybe there would be some pressure to rebuild the whole line, perhaps underground.

Perhaps gas prices get so high that more and more people want to ride the train. Hard to really know what the future would bring. There are many factors, some of which have likely not even been thought of at this point.

My guess is quite similar to Wooster's. I think that another level of government will fund the line about 12 to 15 years from now. However, the city put half of a decade's worth of MSI funding into the WLRT, and before the NC line is built the $500M-$1B 8th ave subway and the $2-2.5B SE LRT will have gone ahead, both with future money given by other levels of government. I hope that the provincial government steps up to fund LRT once the ring roads are complete. Putting the same amount of money into LRT as they have put into the ring roads would get most lof those projects done.

[Policy Wonk]

7th Ave is already scheduled above its peak capacity, the first order of business when an 8th Ave subway commences operation will be to introduce some sort of passing reflection on reality to the schedule which will probably result in significantly fewer peak frequencies operated on 7th ave. Between the hours of 6 and 9 am 25% of trains are delayed more than a minute traveling between 3rd and 10th street because of yielding to surface traffic.

So no, you can't calculate that sort of increase in capacity based on longer consists and an assumption that Calgary Transit will persist with operating a completely dysfunctional peak schedule on 7th once an 8th Ave subway enters service. Calgary Transit's stated goals for both 201 and 202 can not be met without both lines being grade separated. As time goes on and a non-interlined 7th Ave reaches its reasonable capacity and with the likelihood a future mayor and council will return the North Central LRT to Nose Creek grade separating 7th will become a necessity.

[MichaelS]

Wooster, based on your position I think it would be a good idea to stop saying nose creek is completely out as an option. While I am sure many people surveyed would prefer a centre street alignment, they may change their tune once they see a cost estimate. Mmaybe not, but at least provide all the information before taking away options.

I have used this extreme scenario in the past, but will ask again. Would centre street be worth it if it cost 50billion more? How about 30 billion? 10? Until the full costs for each option are determined, along with projected ridership so acurrate performance measures an be made, no option should be off the table.