[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by RangerNS

Its also possible that the Careleton employing bouncers that chase people onto the street and hold them hostage might be a problem.

A one-time incident as I understand. In all the times I've been there I've never witnessed any kind of altercation whatsoever.

Having gone many times to the old Ice House in Dartmouth years ago, I'm well aware of how rough things can get (this type of incident happened almost every night there), and I have to say the Carleton is one of the most civilized bars I've ever gone to, in terms of things getting out of hand.

Not sure what point you are trying to make unless it was a joke?

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Colin May

A flippant comment which deliberately ignores the situation.

Jonovision is one of the more thoughtful contributors here, and rarely "flippant".

I don't doubt that businesses in the district are feeling the effects of the prolonged construction and don't begrudge them looking for mitigation measures. But most of these solutions, including the cries from the CFIB for municipal handouts (you know the CFIB, that fearless fighter of taxes and red tape...except when it's spending or regulation to benefit their members) ignore the essential fact that when this complex opens it will put thousands of employees and visitors daily directly across the street from these businesses. Are there none of these entrepreneurs prepared to borrow against that anticipated success? And, if they don't believe they can survive and thrive in that environment, one would be quite right to question the viability of their business models.

[Jringe01]

Originally Posted by RangerNS

OMG...ALIENS!!!
Like seriously, look in the bottom left hand corner of the pic at the bottom of the TD tower reflection

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Colin May

A flippant comment which deliberately ignores the situation.

I don't think so ...I agree with him ..seems a bit far fetched to me too. I really like the Carleton I think it's a great spot and a great music venue but to blame it all on the Nova Centre construction seems a bit much for me. Durty Nellys seems to be doing fine and it's in the same situation.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Jringe01

OMG...ALIENS!!!
Like seriously, look in the bottom left hand corner of the pic at the bottom of the TD tower reflection

[Hali87]

I'm pretty sure the Carleton is just asking the public/their regular patrons for a bit of extra support (completely voluntary). A lot of my friends are happy to contribute what they can here. The article phrases it oddly - "reaching out to Halifax", but I don't get the impression they're going to "the city" (ie. council etc.) for support, just asking for completely voluntary support from whoever's interested.

This seems entirely reasonable to me. Why should they have to change their business model if their existing customers are willing to pay a bit extra to keep it as-is?

Halifax's bar/food/music scene is one of the city's main selling points. Until recently, the film industry also certainly was (time will tell how much damage has been done over the last year or two).

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Halifax's bar/food/music scene is one of the city's main selling points. Until recently, the film industry also certainly was (time will tell how much damage has been done over the last year or two).

Lots. I also wonder about the effect on the theatre scene. Theatre performers work in film and TV too, to pay the bills, as do technicians and others. And then the trickle-down effect on the arts more generally.

Halifax has always been a strong arts city, despite municipal and provincial governments that consistently undervalue that sector. But this move transcends indifference. It was outright hostile. I don't really think the powers that be in this province have a clue what we're good at, and how to capitalize on it.

Halifax is a robustly urban and walkable city, in an era when those attributes are again back in vogue? Let's spend virtually all of our public infrastructure money outside of HRM!

We have extraordinary public universities, home to the large majority of the region's R&D spending, and some of the most innovative thinkers in Canada? Let's cut their funding!

We have a growing and productive film industry? Let's kill it, and spend tens of millions on coal mines and useless ferries!

Anyway, quite off topic. Good luck to the Carleton!

I'm not usually one of these gripe-about-the-governments people, but this crew is just awful.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I'm not usually one of these gripe-about-the-governments people, but this crew is just awful.

For many years Halifax was the worst major city in Canada (I think the list included cities in the hundreds of thousands of people or so and provincial capitals) in terms of combined federal and provincial funding. I haven't seen similar reports for 2015 but I have a feeling the story hasn't changed much.

Part of it is HRM's fault because so much funding comes through cost sharing and HRM council is afraid to take on anything major, plus they often build expensive pet projects like hockey rinks that don't qualify for funding from other levels of government. Transit is a good example where the city could potentially get hundreds of millions of dollars of funding. Only a small percentage, often 1/3 or less, of transit capital costs are paid out by municipalities in most of Canada. Here's an example:

How are we funding the building and operation of ION?
The capital costs of $818 - the costs dedicated to building ION - are funded entirely by three levels of government: the Government of Ontario ($300 million), the Government of Canada ($265 million) and the Region of Waterloo ($253 million).

So the Region of Waterloo is getting $818M worth of useful infrastructure and economic activity for investing only $253M. From the perspective of the city council that should be seen as a great investment.

This is how the funding disparities are created, and it's sad that the city and province are mostly oblivious. The federal government has even been signalling lately that they want to fund transit; Halifax will very likely miss the boat there because they have no plan ready to fund. I think Scott Brison has already been talking about how he wants more highway funding for NS, probably to twin more and more remote highways that serve tens of thousands of residents and need to be maintained with provincial dollars.

At the provincial level I have a feeling not much will change until the electoral districts shift more toward the city. There's also a bit of a PR problem in that the places within an hour or so of the city should be in favour of urban infrastructure but tend not to be. About 2/3 of the people in NS live within an hour or two of the city and can directly benefit from infrastructure built there. NS isn't really a province of remote villages.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

This seems entirely reasonable to me. Why should they have to change their business model if their existing customers are willing to pay a bit extra to keep it as-is?

The messaging is frequently off a bit though. Instead of arguing that their businesses are great for the city and that locals should chip in to keep them going (or come out to see what they're like if they've never gone before), the owners often sound like they are whining. Not sure if that's true in this case but it's very common.

The worst are the "these stupid bumpkins in Halifax have no taste" type articles where business owners complain about their lack of customers. That approach seems very unlikely to get people in the doors and, worse, it seems to suggest that the owners think that customers should adapt to businesses rather than the other way around. That is not a viable business strategy. Even if people in Halifax are all hicks, insulting them is not going to help a business, and the business owner is at fault if they tried to operate something inappropriate for the market.

A few years ago there were definitely some outdated and not very innovative businesses downtown that would get news coverage as there was turnover. The real story was that the market for downtown retail was just fine (as we can see now by the fact that there are many new, higher-end businesses) but these businesses were not providing goods and services that people wanted. If they were in Toronto or Vancouver the phenomenon might have been seen for what it was but in Halifax the blame-this-backward-city thing often gets more traction than it should.

I do agree that construction can be disruptive and that business owners should be compensated in some way. I think there should be a way to temporarily lower property tax assessments a bit and return some money directly to tenants, effectively lowering the rents for a while to reflect the fact that these places are not as desirable as they otherwise would be.

[JET]

The new Battery Park in Dartmouth used crowfunding before they opened, and it's very hard to get a seat in there. If crowdfunding will help the Carleton stay open, I'm all for that. Later on, it may be hard to get a seat in there.

[someone123]

Argyle Street:


Source

It's looking a lot more downtown-like with the Nova Centre. It's not quite Barrington but there are still some great heritage buildings. I also like how the street is terminated at both ends. Granville and Bedford Row are like this as well. Grafton's going to be somewhat similar but with a covered section.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by JET

The new Battery Park in Dartmouth used crowfunding before they opened, and it's very hard to get a seat in there. If crowdfunding will help the Carleton stay open, I'm all for that. Later on, it may be hard to get a seat in there.

I really hope it keeps them going..I really like the Carleton! and if the regular patrons want to help out to make sure it survives that is great but to blame it all on the Nova Centre construction and nothing to do with the business model of the bar I think is a total cop out IMO.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I'm pretty sure the Carleton is just asking the public/their regular patrons for a bit of extra support (completely voluntary). A lot of my friends are happy to contribute what they can here. The article phrases it oddly - "reaching out to Halifax", but I don't get the impression they're going to "the city" (ie. council etc.) for support, just asking for completely voluntary support from whoever's interested.

Actually they are. According to a Dec. 1 CBC story, "Eight small businesses in downtown Halifax have asked for financial compensation from the city to help them survive in the near-term after they say ongoing Nova Centre construction has hit their bottom lines. The group, which includes the owners of The Wooden Monkey restaurant and The Carleton Bar and Grill, made the request in a letter to Mayor Mike Savage and the rest of regional council on Nov. 20."

The piece goes on to say the letter was drafted by those great fans of big government, the CFIB.

Reader comments seem roughly split between those who are pro-compensation ("They should be compensated. It's a war zone of construction down there.") and those who are less sympathetic. ("I wonder if these businesses will elect to give a percentage of their income back to the Nova Center once it opens and their receipts go up substantially.")

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-centre-businesses-compensation-1.3345106

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I really hope it keeps them going..I really like the Carleton! and if the regular patrons want to help out to make sure it survives that is great but to blame it all on the Nova Centre construction and nothing to do with the business model of the bar I think is a total cop out IMO.

Correctly or not, this is how it comes across. Campbell has been quick to blame HRM for a number of other things over the years, which probably doesn't help his whiny image much.

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Jonovision is one of the more thoughtful contributors here, and rarely "flippant".

I don't doubt that businesses in the district are feeling the effects of the prolonged construction and don't begrudge them looking for mitigation measures. But most of these solutions, including the cries from the CFIB for municipal handouts (you know the CFIB, that fearless fighter of taxes and red tape...except when it's spending or regulation to benefit their members) ignore the essential fact that when this complex opens it will put thousands of employees and visitors daily directly across the street from these businesses. Are there none of these entrepreneurs prepared to borrow against that anticipated success? And, if they don't believe they can survive and thrive in that environment, one would be quite right to question the viability of their business models.

Thanks for the defence. I think its about how they go about asking and it could just be the way the media is framing it. I don't think there is anything wrong with hosting a fundraiser or something along those lines. But to me that shouldn't be the first thing you look at. Other bars along Argyle are doing extremely well, look at Lot Six next door which is always packed. They are doing something right.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

Other bars along Argyle are doing extremely well, look at Lot Six next door which is always packed. They are doing something right.

It's tricky because there are so many factors at play and some of them are pretty much unknowable.

Would the business really have been successful without the construction?
Is there no way for the business to ever benefit from the construction?
Did the construction really cause businesses to lose things they were entitled to, or just things they were lucky to have? People complain about losing views and sunshine that they're not entitled to based on their property rights.
Could the business owner have reasonably done something to mitigate the situation knowing that the construction was coming? Maybe the businesses should have moved.

I suspect the number of true victims is pretty small. If you own one of these buildings, your property values have been rising. If you're leasing space in the buildings, you could have moved (having to move someday is always a risk if you don't own). The new convention centre has been planned since 2008 or so.

[worldlyhaligonian]

It actually seemed busy inside when I was in Halifax in the summer because of how many people were just walking down Argyle like a pedestrian mall.

Sorry to say, but it seems odd given how well Lot 6 is doing that less traffic is a result of the NC.

We have to remember though, there are those who are trying to leverage the narrative against NC... even since it has started construction. People need to embrace it, like the library.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Actually they are. According to a Dec. 1 CBC story, "Eight small businesses in downtown Halifax have asked for financial compensation from the city to help them survive in the near-term after they say ongoing Nova Centre construction has hit their bottom lines. The group, which includes the owners of The Wooden Monkey restaurant and The Carleton Bar and Grill, made the request in a letter to Mayor Mike Savage and the rest of regional council on Nov. 20."

The piece goes on to say the letter was drafted by those great fans of big government, the CFIB.

Reader comments seem roughly split between those who are pro-compensation ("They should be compensated. It's a war zone of construction down there.") and those who are less sympathetic. ("I wonder if these businesses will elect to give a percentage of their income back to the Nova Center once it opens and their receipts go up substantially.")

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-centre-businesses-compensation-1.3345106

Well, that's a bit different then. I'm all for the voluntary "crowdfunding" approach but it seems unreasonable for the city to bail them out - wouldn't that be kind of unfair to the businesses on Barrington Street (which is actually probably MORE disrupted from construction than Argyle) and Spring Garden (which was in a similar state a couple years ago)?

If anything, some kind of arrangement should have been negotiated during the approvals process or before construction began. But bailing out businesses because there happens to be construction nearby kind of sets a dangerous precedent (I guess the flip side is that ALL businesses that have to endure the inconveniences of adjacent construction for a long period of time could be compensated somehow, but that seems impractical).

[Drybrain]

The vagueness is what bothers me. "Some" business have lost 50 percent of revenue? Which ones? Is it even more than one? How do we know it has to do with the Nova Centre and isn't coincidental?

But if the city didn't really discuss mitigation before, it would look callous to start asking those hard questions now. It's probably easier just to hand out some compensation and be done with it.

Again, I like a lot of the businesses that are part of this appeal, and I certainly hope they survive. But I have a nagging suspicion that construction is getting excessively blamed, or that the troubles are being exaggerated.

I fully admit I could be wrong, though.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The vagueness is what bothers me. "Some" business have lost 50 percent of revenue? Which ones? Is it even more than one? How do we know it has to do with the Nova Centre and isn't coincidental?

But if the city didn't really discuss mitigation before, it would look callous to start asking those hard questions now. It's probably easier just to hand out some compensation and be done with it.

Again, I like a lot of the businesses that are part of this appeal, and I certainly hope they survive. But I have a nagging suspicion that construction is getting excessively blamed, or that the troubles are being exaggerated.

I fully admit I could be wrong, though.

Construction in general can be an issue, I'm reluctant to head to Halifax from Dartmouth when the bridge closes at 7pm