Salt Lake MSA Development Thread

[Future Mayor]

I just e-mailed the Community Development Director and asked him why the city changed their plans from TOD to suburban office. I'll post what I find out.

[slc801]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

Congratulations vista station you're just another office Park. What was originally going to be buildings up to 12 stories with parking structures is now just turning out to be a group of five story buildings with a massive parking lot. Way to underachieve there Draper city.

Update with Renderings from KSL.com

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=33958079&nid...-vista-station

Total Fail!!! This is a waste of a development right by a Frontrunner Station. No where near a TOD. How disappointing.
God I get so tired of getting my hopes up and excited over a suburban city talking big about how they want to be more urban, walkable and build high-rises only to see their plans always falling short and we end up always having to settle for some piece of shit lackluster typical office Park low-rise buildings with a sea of parking lots. Seems like Salt Lake and Murray are the only two cities that we have who truly dare to build anything taller then 12 stories.
Just don't develop that area developers, if you clowns can't do it right.

This makes me doubt that moving the prison is financially viable. If Draper turns Vista Station into a giant sea of parking with a few buildings scattered throughout, then I doubt that they will do much more with the land around the prison. And if they just turn the land into parking, I don't think that it works out financially and makes me think even more that it is just a deal to benefit a few legislators.

[Stenar]

I'm glad this isn't going to be 12-story buildings. This is in the Jordan River nature area that cities were supposed to be preserving. I walk along the river daily and it's bad enough with eBay as a big scar on the landscape, not to mention all the runoff from these buildlings/parking lots feeding into the river.

They are actually building an office park with 8-10 story office buildings a block or two SE of Vista Station, though (outside the Jordan River nature area).

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

Congratulations vista station you're just another office Park. What was originally going to be buildings up to 12 stories with parking structures is now just turning out to be a group of five story buildings with a massive parking lot. Way to underachieve there Draper city.

Update with Renderings from KSL.com

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=33958079&nid...-vista-station

Total Fail!!! This is a waste of a development right by a Frontrunner Station. No where near a TOD. How disappointing.
God I get so tired of getting my hopes up and excited over a suburban city talking big about how they want to be more urban, walkable and build high-rises only to see their plans always falling short and we end up always having to settle for some piece of shit lackluster typical office Park low-rise buildings with a sea of parking lots. Seems like Salt Lake and Murray are the only two cities that we have who truly dare to build anything taller then 12 stories.
Just don't develop that area developers, if you clowns can't do it right.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Stenar

They are actually building an office park with 8-10 story office buildings a block or two SE of Vista Station, though (outside the Jordan River nature area).

Are you talking about Draper Pointe office park just west of IKEA? I think there's three buildings on that site that are five stories each. Where are the 8-10 story building/s?

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I just e-mailed the Community Development Director and asked him why the city changed their plans from TOD to suburban office. I'll post what I find out.

I would be very interested in what you find out. I would be willing to bet that the response will be something along the line of 'this is but the beginning or a phase I'. I'm thinking that over time, as growth dictates, the sea of parking will become additional development. More offices, parking terraces to replace blacktop, and hopefully a mix of commercial services.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by delts145

I would be very interested in what you find out. I would be willing to bet that the response will be something along the line of 'this is but the beginning or a phase I'. I'm thinking that over time, as growth dictates, the sea of parking will become additional development. More offices, parking terraces to replace blacktop, and hopefully a mix of commercial services.

Pretty close:

Thank you for your comments. I know the Vista Station plan has changed a little but the intention is still that the development around it will make use of the transit stop. I think as the project develops and the density increases that opportunity will become more apparent and more utilized.

I did read in the Enterprise this morning that Boyer, the new owner/developer, does plan to include 1,100 residential units as part of the overall project. Could easily be that they say that now, but could change their plans for more office in the future.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

Are you talking about Draper Pointe office park just west of IKEA? I think there's three buildings on that site that are five stories each. Where are the 8-10 story building/s?

Yes, that's the one. I didn't count the number of floors, but they seemed taller than five stories to me.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Pretty close:

Thank you for your comments. I know the Vista Station plan has changed a little but the intention is still that the development around it will make use of the transit stop. I think as the project develops and the density increases that opportunity will become more apparent and more utilized.

I did read in the Enterprise this morning that Boyer, the new owner/developer, does plan to include 1,100 residential units as part of the overall project. Could easily be that they say that now, but could change their plans for more office in the future.

Hopefully the Boyer company takes full advantage of their opportunities concerning vista station development, however 100 bucks says that 10 years from now that parking lot will still be a parking lot while Boyer and other developers are buying up other open land ( former state prison site perhaps ) to develop even more boring office parks. Every other states and Cities are building high-rises while we are still building lame ass office parks thinking it's still 1999. That's how we roll here in Utah.

[bob rulz]

Unless you're aware of every single suburban development going on in every single metro area, I think that's a pretty hyperbolic statement. I would be shocked if other cities weren't still building crappy office parks in the suburbs.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Unless you're aware of every single suburban development going on in every single metro area, I think that's a pretty hyperbolic statement. I would be shocked if other cities weren't still building crappy office parks in the suburbs.

How many Utah Cities besides Salt Lake that has anything taller then 12-stories?

Murray?

Just saying our state is very behind in the times when it comes with developing REAL highrises that are taller then 6-stories. It gets really annoying even people and developers call a four-five story building a highrise. Really? Are we really that lame that for us a four story building would be what a 20-story building to everybody else would be? Been to plenty of other states, some of which have about the same amount of people as Utah who are developing highrises in the suburbs. Hell, I don't even have to travel, all I have to do is come on this forum and look up other cites MSA's threads.

Sorry to sound annoyed, but let's be honest. How many Suburban "Highrise Big Development" came true over these last ten years? Zero.

Lehi's Frank Gehry development................fail
Pleasant Grove's high rise hotel and convention center..........................fail
All of Sandy City's high rise proposals office, housing, theater, ect.................fail
South Salt Lake's 27-story housing tower............................................fail

Either these proposals are all sit just empty fields or scaled down.

Surly a state that is reaching 3 mil can do better.

[i-215]

If this is TOD, then Utah is hosed. :-(

Oh well, at least we tried.

[SL,UT]

One reason why developers build out and not up. Cheap land. Land here is cheep and there is quite a bit of it. Developers know this and it is clearly a smart business decision to build out and not up in the burbs.

Only until land becomes more expensive and scarce will developers start to build up.

Simple. As. That.

I don't know why everyone here has a coronary when a development takes place that is less then 5 stories high. You should all take your big heads out of the clouds and be grateful that there is even development going on. It doesn't matter how tall the buildings are. All that matters is it is creating jobs and economic impact for our state.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by SL,UT

One reason why developers build out and not up. Cheap land. Land here is cheep and there is quite a bit of it. Developers know this and it is clearly a smart business decision to build out and not up in the burbs.

Only until land becomes more expensive and scarce will developers start to build up.

Simple. As. That.

I don't know why everyone here has a coronary when a development takes place that is less then 5 stories high. You should all take your big heads out of the clouds and be grateful that there is even development going on. It doesn't matter how tall the buildings are. All that matters is it is creating jobs and economic impact for our state.

While the past few posts have gone off on suburban vs highrise, I think the real issue concerning Vista Station is that it went from being proposed as a serious TOD and is now a regular Suburban office park with a few small buildings in the midst of a vast sea of parking.

The one positive I can say is that at least 4 of the 6 office buildings shown in the ksl rendering are being built on the east side, across from the Front Runner Station, so at least they are within walking distance of the Front Runner stop. Hopefully the areas to the north and south of the station will be developed into some housing, with nice pedestrian connections to Front Runner.

I think one thing that cities are afraid of is reducing their parking requirements, both minimums and maximums. Maybe Draper has done this for vista Station, but it sure doesn't appear as if they have. Reduce both the minimum requirements and the maximum allowed for this area and that will provide more land for development and will make for smarter development as they will have to utilize the proximity for Front Runner more efficiently.

Yes developers continue to build a large number of 5 story office buildings in suburban office parks, except for a select few that feel a need to develop both for a profit and for the overall good of the people/city/valley/state, they will develop how a city allows them to develop. If the city allows suburb style office buildings in seas of parking lots, that is what is going to be built. So until Planning Commissions and City Councils see the vision for more compact development and the needed retention of agricultural land, things will continue as they are. Development Nerds (like us) and city planners can educate, preach, bitch and moan all they want, but until elected and appointed officials grasp the importance of these concepts and buy in things will continue to develop Status Quo.

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

So until Planning Commissions and City Councils

Draper will never do the right thing because of WHO is on the planning commission and City Council. I had a friend that did commercial real estate in the Salt Lake Valley (He's moved on to other places now) The crap that was thrown at him by Draper city was quite shocking sometimes. He quite all his leases in that city because of it. This was 8 years ago.

Vista Station it's-self is a controversial development and the fact the developers said all these great things about what they think their development would be just to shut people up. Then sheepishly announce this is a nice joke on them and everyone that let them develop this land.

Do not think one second that if and once the prison is moved that Draper will find developers (which they probably already have) that will say amazing things about what they will build and then ... poof they build Thanksgiving Point Lehi all over again.

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

vision for more compact development and the needed retention of agricultural land

I think in 30 or so years, cities will regret developing so much of the once farm land they had. As their food prices go up because of it and as California is finding out ... how a drought takes their supply out because of too much localized agriculture. Davis County, Weber County and Utah County still have some time to save their selves from this.

Development is not bad, bad planned development is whats bad and that falls onto the people that can affect it the best, city offices. I have yet to be impressed with any new development built on the Wasatch front since I've lived here and that's 15 years.

[Stenar]

If they could put a pedestrian bridge over the tracks from the apartments and houses on the east side, that would help. There is even more multi-level housing on the east side of the tracks than show in the image above.

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

While the past few posts have gone off on suburban vs highrise, I think the real issue concerning Vista Station is that it went from being proposed as a serious TOD and is now a regular Suburban office park with a few small buildings in the midst of a vast sea of parking.

The one positive I can say is that at least 4 of the 6 office buildings shown in the ksl rendering are being built on the east side, across from the Front Runner Station, so at least they are within walking distance of the Front Runner stop. Hopefully the areas to the north and south of the station will be developed into some housing, with nice pedestrian connections to Front Runner.

I think one thing that cities are afraid of is reducing their parking requirements, both minimums and maximums. Maybe Draper has done this for vista Station, but it sure doesn't appear as if they have. Reduce both the minimum requirements and the maximum allowed for this area and that will provide more land for development and will make for smarter development as they will have to utilize the proximity for Front Runner more efficiently.

Yes developers continue to build a large number of 5 story office buildings in suburban office parks, except for a select few that feel a need to develop both for a profit and for the overall good of the people/city/valley/state, they will develop how a city allows them to develop. If the city allows suburb style office buildings in seas of parking lots, that is what is going to be built. So until Planning Commissions and City Councils see the vision for more compact development and the needed retention of agricultural land, things will continue as they are. Development Nerds (like us) and city planners can educate, preach, bitch and moan all they want, but until elected and appointed officials grasp the importance of these concepts and buy in things will continue to develop Status Quo.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by AllOutOfBubbleGum

Vista Station it's-self is a controversial development and the fact the developers said all these great things about what they think their development would be just to shut people up. Then sheepishly announce this is a nice joke on them and everyone that let them develop this land.

Just to clarify, Boyer is not the original developer of Vista Station, they recently bought the property from Boulder Ventures. Boulder Ventures is the company that redeveloped the Granite Furniture building in Sugarhouse and will eventually redevelop Phase II to the south.

Boulder Ventures has had some internal issues in the past couple of years, one owner knowing his shit, one not having a clue, which resulted in them not have the capacity to develop Vista Station, and had to sell it. I have talked to the smart principal of Boulder Ventures a couple of times and they really do have a desire to create more walkable communities that are smartly developed. I believe that had they retained Vista Station that it would have developed as originally proposed. Boyer saw an opportunity and seized it and have changed the proposal to what will turn a profit as soon as possible rather than stick with a long term slow build vision.


On a side note; The Enterprise article mentioned that "Draper Pointe" will be re-branded and be included as part of Vista Station.


As for Draper, I agree with you, until leadership changes, or until Planners can inform and educate those leaders and the leaders actually believe that the professionally trained staff knows what they're talking about not much will change.

The Prison Pointe, proposal is aggressive and if it did happen I would be truly impressed. However I think there are serious flaws with the proposal they came up with;
First (just as you mentioned); I'm sure there are already developers lined up that have already planned their suburban office park layout for the site,(cram as many 3-5 story office buildings in as quickly as possible, while overwhelming the street infrastructure) despite what Drapers vision is.
Second; the access is a serious issue, they show light rail or streetcar running through Prison Pointe, but the problem is where the hell is it connected to the rest of the rail system? It's obviously not connected to FrontRunner, as Vista Station is so far away and there is no Riverton/Bluffdale station, and even if Trax were extended south through South Mountain, how the hell do they plan on connecting to that line, the change in elevation is massive, Trax won't be able to operate on an incline that massive.

So get ready for Prison Pointe, aka Thanksgiving Pointe North.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Stenar

If they could put a pedestrian bridge over the tracks from the apartments and houses on the east side, that would help. There is even more multi-level housing on the east side of the tracks than show in the image above.

I hadn't thought of that before, but that is a great idea. There is compact housing development and some apartments just north of Draper Pointe. It isn't a huge amount but the bridge may just encourage a few additional people to right FronrtRunner without driving their car over there.

I think access from both sides of the tracks could benefit most of the transit stops along FR and Trax. I do expect that in the future this will most likely occur, whether it's through pedestrian bridges being built over the tracks, or in the case of Trax, platform access being created on both sides. I think as TOD's continue to develop, TOD's like Fireclay, not TAD's like Farmington Station, that property owners and developers will see the huge potential of developing at all transit stops. I honestly think that in 15 years the majority of Trax stations will look drastically different as the highest and best use for surrounding properties makes a massive swing in the directly of higher/mixed use development.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by SL,UT

One reason why developers build out and not up. Cheap land. Land here is cheep and there is quite a bit of it. Developers know this and it is clearly a smart business decision to build out and not up in the burbs.

Only until land becomes more expensive and scarce will developers start to build up.

Simple. As. That.

I don't know why everyone here has a coronary when a development takes place that is less then 5 stories high. You should all take your big heads out of the clouds and be grateful that there is even development going on. It doesn't matter how tall the buildings are. All that matters is it is creating jobs and economic impact for our state.

The problem is that this kind of development is not sustainable. Yes, it's better to have jobs than not have them, but they're not built for the long term. They're basically built to be replaced in 30-40 years. They're also built to get the FASTEST revenue, not the BEST. So while it's theoretically better to have those jobs and development than not have them, it's even BETTER in the long run to make mixed-use, sustainable, transit-oriented communities.

Height is also not the issue. It's completely possible to have reasonable, smart, sustainable development where the office buildings are still 5 or less stories.

[ryerop]

So I have a random question for all of the people on here always know about everything being built. Does anyone know what is being built on the lot right next to Greenhouse Effect coffee house, it's about 3220 s 900 e. It is right across the street from the apartments where I currently live and I'm excited to see something finally going in there. It's probably another small apartment complex of some sort but I have been very curious as they have started clearing the ground. Thanks in advance if anyone knows.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by ryerop

So I have a random question for all of the people on here always know about everything being built. Does anyone know what is being built on the lot right next to Greenhouse Effect coffee house, it's about 3220 s 900 e. It is right across the street from the apartments where I currently live and I'm excited to see something finally going in there. It's probably another small apartment complex of some sort but I have been very curious as they have started clearing the ground. Thanks in advance if anyone knows.

They seem to be building townhouses. The owner of the lot is: FORREST HILL MILLCREEK LLC



More photos at: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/32...12786762_zpid/