VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

None of the marketing suggested Guelph was going to be skipped. Guelph was a swing riding for the provincial liberals.

There was a bypass proposed. Whether it was built or not is really a political decision. Not a technical one.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Pearson is 25 km from Union, Guelph is 79 and Kitchener is 101 (although they are moving the station to the west, so it may be 102 or 103 in the future). Where else does a High Speed Rail line operate like this?

Aside from the examples from Urban Sky. Just look at all the trains that connect at CDG 2 in Paris. A lot of those enable travel to stations that are 30-50km away. Not just the endpoints 300-500 km away. City stops for most HSR systems focus on connectivity, not speed. So airports and major rail hubs. In this case, one could make the case for a Bloor-Danforth connection, in addition to the airport.

Stop spacing is usually correlated with speed. The 300+ kph lines tend to have wider stop spacing. For what is being proposed in southwestern Ontario (200-250 kph), 30-50 km stop spacing is very much in line with other lines of that speed.

Lastly, part of the reason we have demand for more stops is because our regional rail system is rather poor. HSR elsewhere tends to basically be a regional express service. GO doesn't do this well. It will be a lot better after the $12B GO Expansion/RER. But skipping stops for any future HSR, will require some expansion of GO services to take up the slack for stops that lose service (like Stratford and Guelph).

[hipster duck]

Kitchener-Toronto is the only intercity pair in the country where passenger rail has gotten considerably better in the past few decades. This whole VIA rail thread deals in hypotheticals, but here's a concrete example of passenger rail being improved.

It used to be served by 2 VIA trains a day. Those same trains today take 1:38, make 5 stops and, based on browsing the site right now, will cost you $61 for the lowest same day fare.

Now it's also served by 9 GO trains a day. While all trains take less than 1:50, the fastest trains make 7 stops and take 1:39, and will cost you $16 with PRESTO.

The only major bottleneck to improvement is for Metrolinx to add additional track through Brampton so trains don't have to share tracks with the CN mainline and grade separate Silver Junction, where CN freights cross over and head south toward Milton. This, plus electrification and already planned passing tracks will allow all day, two way services operating at sub-30 minute frequencies and at speeds that no car could compete with.

[hipster duck]

Instead of spending billions on HSR, the goal in Southwestern Ontario should be to take the same amount of money and allow High Frequency, electrified sub-200 km/h rail service on three corridors:

Toronto - YYZ - Kitchener - London
Toronto - Aldershot - London - Windsor
Toronto - Aldershot - Hamilton - St. Catharines - Niagara

I think GO is planning on electrifying the whole Barrie line, but only running RER to Aurora. Having HFR-type service to Barrie would be a good 4th choice.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Instead of spending billions on HSR, the goal in Southwestern Ontario should be to take the same amount of money and allow High Frequency, electrified sub-200 km/h rail service on three corridors:

Toronto - YYZ - Kitchener - London
Toronto - Aldershot - Brantford - London - Windsor
Toronto - Aldershot - Hamilton - St. Catharines - Niagara

I think GO is planning on electrifying the whole Barrie line, but only running RER to Aurora. Having HFR-type service to Barrie would be a good 4th choice.

Fixed it for you.

Adding HFR makes sense, but if they also wanted to put HSR, most on here would suggest against all 3.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Instead of spending billions on HSR, the goal in Southwestern Ontario should be to take the same amount of money and allow High Frequency, electrified sub-200 km/h rail service on three corridors:

Toronto - YYZ - Kitchener - London
Toronto - Aldershot - London - Windsor
Toronto - Aldershot - Hamilton - St. Catharines - Niagara

I think GO is planning on electrifying the whole Barrie line, but only running RER to Aurora. Having HFR-type service to Barrie would be a good 4th choice.

Yes I'd say that's the best option. Consistent speeds of 160-200km/h is great for those distances as long as there's dedicated tracks allowing frequent service without delays from freight.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Instead of spending billions on HSR, the goal in Southwestern Ontario should be to take the same amount of money and allow High Frequency, electrified sub-200 km/h rail service on three corridors:

Toronto - YYZ - Kitchener - London
Toronto - Aldershot - London - Windsor
Toronto - Aldershot - Hamilton - St. Catharines - Niagara

I think GO is planning on electrifying the whole Barrie line, but only running RER to Aurora. Having HFR-type service to Barrie would be a good 4th choice.

It's costing Metrolinx about $13.5B (2015 estimate) to electrify and grade separate about 150 km of dedicated corridors.



You're suggesting that program be extended to another 500 km of dedicated corridors. This is probably $30-50B worth of development. And that is not counting the cost of acquiring the corridors from the freight operators (who refuse to allow OCS on their lines). This amount of capital spending is highly unlikely in our lifetimes. What is possible is maybe $10B extending electrification and grade separation on a selected corridor all the way to Windsor, via London.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's costing Metrolinx about $13.5B (2015 estimate) to electrify and grade separate about 150 km of dedicated corridors.



You're suggesting that program be extended to another 500 km of dedicated corridors. This is probably $30-50B worth of development. And that is not counting the cost of acquiring the corridors from the freight operators (who refuse to allow OCS on their lines). This amount of capital spending is highly unlikely in our lifetimes. What is possible is maybe $10B extending electrification and grade separation on a selected corridor all the way to Windsor, via London.

To be fair, the RER project included infrastructure works far beyond mere electrification. On the other side, if you look carefully at your map, none of the proposed electrification included any corridors owned by CN or CP (i.e. Kitchener only until Bramalea, Lakeshore West only until Burlington and no electrification at all for Richmond Hill or Milton)...

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Kitchener-Toronto is the only intercity pair in the country where passenger rail has gotten considerably better in the past few decades. This whole VIA rail thread deals in hypotheticals, but here's a concrete example of passenger rail being improved.

It used to be served by 2 VIA trains a day. Those same trains today take 1:38, make 5 stops and, based on browsing the site right now, will cost you $61 for the lowest same day fare.

Now it's also served by 9 GO trains a day. While all trains take less than 1:50, the fastest trains make 7 stops and take 1:39, and will cost you $16 with PRESTO.

Toronto-Barrie is another city pair that has seen improvement. They used to have Ontario Northland service from Toronto and they were a stop on VIA's Super Continental, and I think there was also a daily Barrie-Toronto train when VIA first took over from CN that got taken over by GO and later got truncated at Bradford. ONR and VIA moved its service to the east side of Lake Simcoe when the CN Newmarket sub was abandoned between Allandale and Washago in 1996, so for a number of years there was no passenger rail service to Barrie. Now there's 9 GO trains per day during the week, and also some weekend service.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're suggesting that program be extended to another 500 km of dedicated corridors. This is probably $30-50B worth of development. And that is not counting the cost of acquiring the corridors from the freight operators (who refuse to allow OCS on their lines). This amount of capital spending is highly unlikely in our lifetimes. What is possible is maybe $10B extending electrification and grade separation on a selected corridor all the way to Windsor, via London.

Yeah, but the $13B is the total capital cost of the RER program, which includes new stations, new trains, a lot of grade separation, new maintenance and layover facilities and, of course, electrification.

I didn't say my idea was cheap, I said it was a better use of the same amount of funds that would go towards a single SWO HSR line.

In retrospect, I'd probably ditch electrification and HFR on the CN mainline through Brantford and probably end electrification at London, but I don't think upgrading and electrifying the Guelph and Grimsby subs is that far fetched.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah, but the $13B is the total capital cost of the RER program, which includes new stations, new trains, a lot of grade separation, new maintenance and layover facilities and, of course, electrification.

I didn't say my idea was cheap, I said it was a better use of the same amount of funds that would go towards a single SWO HSR line.

In retrospect, I'd probably ditch electrification and HFR on the CN mainline through Brantford and probably end electrification at London, but I don't think upgrading and electrifying the Guelph and Grimsby subs is that far fetched.

Fair enough, but how would you fix the Seaways bridge East of Saint-Catherines?

I only see HFR/HSR to Hamilton and further South ever happen if you route via the Townline tunnel at Welland and into Buffalo rather than Niagara Falls…

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's costing Metrolinx about $13.5B (2015 estimate) to electrify and grade separate about 150 km of dedicated corridors.



You're suggesting that program be extended to another 500 km of dedicated corridors. This is probably $30-50B worth of development. And that is not counting the cost of acquiring the corridors from the freight operators (who refuse to allow OCS on their lines). This amount of capital spending is highly unlikely in our lifetimes. What is possible is maybe $10B extending electrification and grade separation on a selected corridor all the way to Windsor, via London.

Switching to electric for passenger service, especially where ridership is high is going to be the next big thing. It can be used as a way of saying it is going 'green'. It can save on fuel costs.My guess is dual mode trains will be the next order for the Corridor and there will be incremental electrification.Depending on future tech, CN and CP may see it as the next cost cutting thing and begin to electrify their busier sections.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Fair enough, but how would you fix the Seaways bridge East of Saint-Catherines?

I only see HFR/HSR to Hamilton and further South ever happen if you route via the Townline tunnel at Welland and into Buffalo rather than Niagara Falls…

That's going to be a huge cost, no question. Personally, I think that Niagara Falls is the much bigger catch than Buffalo. I think there are something like 12 million visitors a year to NF, most of them day trippers from the GTA.

I'd probably do a phased approach where the Grimsby sub is purchased by Metrolinx and upgraded for AD2W frequent diesel service as far as St. Catharines with connecting shuttle buses to Niagara Falls. If that's well received, I'd push for either a tunnel or a high bridge crossing of the Welland canal in phase 2, along with electrification. I'm not sure which one would be cheaper.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That's going to be a huge cost, no question. Personally, I think that Niagara Falls is the much bigger catch than Buffalo. I think there are something like 12 million visitors a year to NF, most of them day trippers from the GTA.

Maybe, but that‘s not exactly the crowd which depends on fast&frequent intercity rail service over a readonably fast and regional rail service with a few journeys throughout the day.

I'd probably do a phased approach where the Grimsby sub is purchased by Metrolinx and upgraded for AD2W frequent diesel service as far as St. Catharines with connecting shuttle buses to Niagara Falls.

May I ask you what precedent you see for CN surrendering ownership or operational control on any part of its core network (here: their Toronto-Buffalo corridor)?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Maybe, but that‘s not exactly the crowd which depends on fast&frequent intercity rail service over a readonably fast and regional rail service with a few journeys throughout the day.

Speed may not be crucial, but frequency probably is. NF is served by an hourly GO bus to Burlington, and there are a lot of people who commute into the GTA from there. The QEW has at least 70,000 AADT as far as Highway 420 (the NF exit), after which it drops down to the 30,000 range.

May I ask you what precedent you see for CN surrendering ownership or operational control on any part of its core network (here: their Toronto-Buffalo corridor)?

I'm not sure how important this trackage is to them, but I know their ownership ends at Niagara Falls. It's definitely not one of their transcontinental mainlines where losing operational control is a deal-breaker.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I'm not sure how important this trackage is to them, but I know their ownership ends at Niagara Falls. It's definitely not one of their transcontinental mainlines where losing operational control is a deal-breaker.

Have a closer look at any railway map: CN‘s Buffalo-bound traffic turns Southwest in Niagara Falls and then follows the Welland Canal before turning East again and crossing the border in Fort Erie - all of which is still CN-owned right until the border…

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah, but the $13B is the total capital cost of the RER program, which includes new stations, new trains, a lot of grade separation, new maintenance and layover facilities and, of course, electrification.

Presumably, if you're investing in electrification and grade separation, it's because you anticipate the frequencies to justify the investment, which Metrolinx seems to think it's at least semi-hourly AD2W. So we're anticipating this kind of service all over SWO, then replicating RER investment is exactly what is necessary. Even at a lower level of development, we're still talking massive fleet expansion, new and rebuilt stations, and probably a substantial amount of grade separation in high traffic areas.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I didn't say my idea was cheap, I said it was a better use of the same amount of funds that would go towards a single SWO HSR line.

But,

1) The cost of a single HSR, isn't close to enough to cover for electrification and grade separation of every SWO corridor.

2) Federal investment is generally meant to facilitate inter-regional travel. Improving commutes from Niagara Falls to Toronto, isn't as important as enabling easier and faster travel from SWO to Eastern Ontario and Southern Quebec.

3) I think there's a misunderstanding of what HSR means here. It was estimated at ~$19B for a 200-250 kph line. It was estimated to cost nearly 3x that for 350+ kph line. So really, what is being proposed is Shinkansens to London and Windsor. It's closer to HFR.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In retrospect, I'd probably ditch electrification and HFR on the CN mainline through Brantford and probably end electrification at London, but I don't think upgrading and electrifying the Guelph and Grimsby subs is that far fetched.

There's no electrification on any freight owned corridor anyway. They aren't cooperating. So Metrolinx will electrify as far as they can on owned tracks and use battery locomotives the rest of the way.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Kitchener-Toronto is the only intercity pair in the country where passenger rail has gotten considerably better in the past few decades. This whole VIA rail thread deals in hypotheticals, but here's a concrete example of passenger rail being improved.

It used to be served by 2 VIA trains a day. Those same trains today take 1:38, make 5 stops and, based on browsing the site right now, will cost you $61 for the lowest same day fare.

Now it's also served by 9 GO trains a day. While all trains take less than 1:50, the fastest trains make 7 stops and take 1:39, and will cost you $16 with PRESTO.

The only major bottleneck to improvement is for Metrolinx to add additional track through Brampton so trains don't have to share tracks with the CN mainline and grade separate Silver Junction, where CN freights cross over and head south toward Milton. This, plus electrification and already planned passing tracks will allow all day, two way services operating at sub-30 minute frequencies and at speeds that no car could compete with.

In the late 1970’s there 5 trains each way between Toronto and London via Kitchener with some continuing on to Sarnia and some having connections inLondon to Windsor and vice versa. At the same time there were 6 trains from Toronto to London via Woodstock for a total of 11 trains each way between Toronto and London.

There are more bottlenecks on the line with freights as freights come from the salt mine in Goderich. This may mean double tracking the whole route.

[Nouvellecosse]

Makes me wonder how big a role battery power might play in the future. A route like NF-Union would have a large portion electrified under the current plans (Union to Aldershot) and there could be a charging facility at NF as well. Much of the charging could be done while under wire, so the only additional cost would be the charging facility in NF and the batteries in the trains. Not a trivial cost, but probably less than electrifying the entire section between Aldershot and NF. Especially considering that the frequency is never going to be as high as in the more central parts of the network. As fuel prices increase and battery tech improves, the business case will only grow stronger.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Makes me wonder how big a role battery power might play in the future. A route like NF-Union would have a large portion electrified under the current plans (Union to Aldershot) and there could be a charging facility at NF as well. Much of the charging could be done while under wire, so the only additional cost would be the charging facility in NF and the batteries in the trains. Not a trivial cost, but probably less than electrifying the entire section between Aldershot and NF. Especially considering that the frequency is never going to be as high as in the more central parts of the network. As fuel prices increase and battery tech improves, the business case will only grow stronger.

In Canada, I doubt we will see battery power for decades after it becomes popular in Europe and Asia. Canada has not had much success with new tech for any rail infrastructure.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Makes me wonder how big a role battery power might play in the future. A route like NF-Union would have a large portion electrified under the current plans (Union to Aldershot) and there could be a charging facility at NF as well. Much of the charging could be done while under wire, so the only additional cost would be the charging facility in NF and the batteries in the trains. Not a trivial cost, but probably less than electrifying the entire section between Aldershot and NF. Especially considering that the frequency is never going to be as high as in the more central parts of the network. As fuel prices increase and battery tech improves, the business case will only grow stronger.

More likely hydrogen power. Here is an example of a proposal that would have used Hydrogen based rail in the Fraser Valley of BC.

• Video Link

Yes, I know no one is actively doing much with this proposal concept.