Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, there is no real Canadian equivalent to the role that the NCAA has in the US. The CHL is probably the closest thing we have to that, but even then, there really isn't something like the D1 teams that draw huge crowds and followings. Some teams are good at capturing the public's attention like the London Knights, but most seem to have lower profiles unless they're playing in really small towns like Prince Albert where they're the only game in town.

It's surprising in some respects because you'd think hockey could achieve something like that in much the same way that American football fans typically follow the pro and college game. You don't see as much of that in Canada, at least apart from the World Juniors.

.

Even the Memorial Cup seems to have declined in cross-Canada popularity. Unless a local team is in it or your city is hosting it, it's pretty under the radar now.

Used to be many hockey fans would follow it in parallel to the early rounds of the Stanley Cup playoffs.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even the Memorial Cup seems to have declined in cross-Canada popularity. Unless a local team is in it or your city is hosting it, it's pretty under the radar now.

Used to be many hockey fans would follow it in parallel to the early rounds of the Stanley Cup playoffs.

TSN and Sportsnet really are quite lazy and spend far less time promoting Canadian Sports then they used to. TSN used to have weekly AHL shows in the 90's and TSN used to do a decent job with CIS playoffs and Vanier cup but now all they do is plug in ESPN feeds endlessly. Sportsnet is NHL and Baseball and nothing else it gets boring real quick with them in the summer if you don't care about the Blue Jays.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

I'd love to see the smaller leagues take hold and give the Big 4 a run for their money. I hope we one day see another professional hockey league emerge in Canada that can give the NHL a headache.

The ship on this has probably sailed. I imagine we've already seen peak hockey in Canada. Something drastic would have to happen for this to occur (CHL or USports reformation, etc.)

Originally Posted by ericmacm

Unfortunately, we will probably never see the MLS expand in Canada again, since they have previously expressed that they do not intend to. I'm really excited about the CPL, though. I think that the promotion/relegation model they plan implementing in the long run will result in a better and more sustainable system than what the MLS has going, with the added benefit of allowing smaller cities to get involved more easily.

CPL is the one league in Canada right now that has a lot of growth potential (potentially with the CEBL in close company). They're in pretty key markets, have a few more key markets available and waiting, and have an influx of talent and market interest. If MLS growth in the last 10-15 years is any indication I imagine the CPL will be a pretty strong league in 2030, relatively speaking.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

TSN and Sportsnet really are quite lazy and spend far less time promoting Canadian Sports then they used to. TSN used to have weekly AHL shows in the 90's and TSN used to do a decent job with CIS playoffs and Vanier cup but now all they do is plug in ESPN feeds endlessly. Sportsnet is NHL and Baseball and nothing else it gets boring real quick with them in the summer if you don't care about the Blue Jays.

That the passion that United Empire Loyalists had for Wake Forest or UConn basketball and that they brought with them to Canada has persisted to this day is a testament to the excellence of the product. Nothing to do with media conditioning at all.

[Chadillaccc]

According to a fairly reliable source, capacity for the new Flames arena is confirmed at 19,100. A slight reduction from the Saddledome's 19,300, but this will keep it in the top 10 largest in the league, and 2nd largest in the country behind Centre Bell.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

According to a fairly reliable source, capacity for the new Flames arena is confirmed at 19,100. A slight reduction from the Saddledome's 19,300, but this will keep it in the top 10 largest in the league, and 2nd largest in the country behind Centre Bell.

Not a smart move. Smaller is better for various reasons.

[youngregina]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Not a smart move. Smaller is better for various reasons.

I’m curious what your reasons are for smaller being better?

I believe there was a lot of talk in negotiations on making, or setting aside affordable seats so that all levels of citizens can participate in Flames events. If not filling all of the seats is one of the reasons to stay small, I would say that it would be more important for there to be access to affordable seats than a completely full arena at all times.

Remember, the city is lending money for this capital expenditure, therefor all people in the community should have access to, and benefit from, the arena once complete.

Edit - we also need a larger venue for concerts, which was another top of list reason for constructing a new arena...

[thurmas]

I just wanna see Calgary renovate McMahon stadium as its 61 years old and way behind the quality of most CFL stadiums now and might never host a Grey Cup again.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by youngregina

I’m curious what your reasons are for smaller being better?

I believe there was a lot of talk in negotiations on making, or setting aside affordable seats so that all levels of citizens can participate in Flames events. If not filling all of the seats is one of the reasons to stay small, I would say that it would be more important for there to be access to affordable seats than a completely full arena at all times.

Remember, the city is lending money for this capital expenditure, therefor all people in the community should have access to, and benefit from, the arena once complete.

Edit - we also need a larger venue for concerts, which was another top of list reason for constructing a new arena...

Plus, bigger can be made smaller (via tarping off sections), but smaller can not be made bigger without serious renovations

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Plus, bigger can be made smaller (via tarping off sections), but smaller can not be made bigger without serious renovations

I don't think any NHL teams are seriously looking to build arenas with the upside that they can tarp sections off.

Originally Posted by youngregina

I’m curious what your reasons are for smaller being better?

It's been the general trend in sports facilities over the past decade or so to build slightly smaller than demand. There's more money in selling 17,500 tickets at $100 than 19,500 tickets at $75. Basically, you increase your demand by limiting supply, nudging ticket cost up slightly. Limiting general seating also makes it easier to squeeze in another corporate box or two, or more trendy things like open bars or standing and social sections.

An arena sitting at around 17,500/18,000 can still be roughly 20,000 for concerts which is the sweet spot for them.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I don't think any NHL teams are seriously looking to build arenas with the upside that they can tarp sections off.

I don’t think so either, but it’s not like it hasn’t been done before with other venues. As I said, it’s better to build too big than too small, especially because it will be used for more than just nhl hockey.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I don’t think so either, but it’s not like it hasn’t been done before with other venues. As I said, it’s better to build too big than too small, especially because it will be used for more than just nhl hockey.

More than NHL? tiddly winks tournaments?

No city is building bigger anymore for sports stadiums or arenas. Building 19,000+ in Calgary is a mistake.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

More than NHL? tiddly winks tournaments?

No city is building bigger anymore for sports stadiums or arenas. Building 19,000+ in Calgary is a mistake.

Sure. Tiddly winks...

You’re right... We should’ve handcuffed ourselves to 16k or 17k.

Stampede events alone will bring in more than 19k

[esquire]

There is the old wisdom that says in a 19,100 seat arena, it's the top row of seats that is going to be most expensive to build, brings in the least money and is most likely to be empty. So the idea is don't be in a rush to build more than you need.

But that said, for a city of Calgary's size and enthusiasm for hockey, 19,100 sounds like a reasonable number. The Saddledome had a capacity of 20,230 for much of the 90s, at a time when Calgary was a considerably smaller city than it is now.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Sure. Tiddly winks...

You’re right... We should’ve handcuffed ourselves to 16k or 17k.

Stampede events alone will bring in more than 19k

A city should not build an arena based on a handful of events. NYC could sell 50,000 tickets if the Nets and Knicks made it to the finals against each other, but you don't build to have your facility at less than capacity for most of the events.

Calgary is no different than any other city in the NHL. The trend is for smaller stadiums, not larger. Since Jan 1st 2000 only one new arena has opened with a higher capacity, Detroit. Meanwhile 10 have also opened since then with a smaller capacity.

Guess Calgary can always pay later for some fancy tarps....

[Chadillaccc]

Where in any of this did you read that the new Flames arena will have a higher capacity than the Saddledome?

The Saddledome has 19,300 seats, and this one - as clearly stated in my post - will be slightly smaller with 19,100 seats. As Edan said, a big part of the municipal investment in this is to ensure it is financially accessible to everyone, not just the middle class and above as Jhikka stated in his "$100 per ticket" comment earlier.

We'll be fine, thank you for the unwarranted and misinformed concern.

[youngregina]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Sure. Tiddly winks...

You’re right... We should’ve handcuffed ourselves to 16k or 17k.

Stampede events alone will bring in more than 19k

Yes, exactly. Those 10 days a year count for a stupid amount of revenue, that is not seen in other cities across Canada to the degree that it is true here. I have no doubt a larger arena would be filled at that capacity multiple times per year. We also have a wealthier market, and large fan base.

[Hackslack]

What are the experts opinion here regarding how Edmonton got it wrong with a capacity of 18,500? Sure seems to be working out great for them... we are literally talking about ~600 additional seats for Calgary’s arena.

[youngregina]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

What are the experts opinion here regarding how Edmonton got it wrong with a capacity of 18,500? Sure seems to be working out great for them... we are literally talking about ~600 additional seats for Calgary’s arena.

Seems about right. I know stadiums aren’t necessarily built on a seats per capita basis, but it appears about right when comparing Edmonton’s seats to their population, and Calgary’s to its.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

What are the experts opinion here regarding how Edmonton got it wrong with a capacity of 18,500? Sure seems to be working out great for them... we are literally talking about ~600 additional seats for Calgary’s arena.

Who said Edmonton got it wrong?

To go back to a point JHikka made earlier, arena seat counts don't tell you quite as much these days as they once did. Edmonton could have probably put at least 1,000 more seats into the top deck where there is a club seating area.

Somehow the Oilers convinced people to pay top dollar to sit in what are normally nosebleed seats (the ones shown at the far right of the chart below). So that club seating area is probably worth way more in than the conventional seats that would have gone there, even though it brings down the seating capacity to 18,500. As we all know, it's about maximizing profit, not attendance.

This is from when Rogers Place first opened, so the prices have all likely increased since then. But it gives you an idea of how much that club seating area at right brings in relative to the regular seats around them.