ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Because I don't see either one contributing to making the Perimeter a walkable - carless area.

Why are you putting walkable and carless together? Midtown is walkable but has cars. Hell, Manhattan is walkable, but there's plenty of cars. You're really reaching in these posts recently.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMustang

Why are you putting walkable and carless together? Midtown is walkable but has cars. Hell, Manhattan is walkable, but there's plenty of cars. You're really reaching in these posts recently.

Carless in this context does not mean zero cars, but approaching a state where cars are not needed or there is a lesser need. I assumed my phrasing was a commonly used vernacular.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

This is in DeKalb, not Fulton.



Wrong. Go back and re-read the posts about the actual development (if you ever did). There are several levels of parking integrated into the office tower.

Leave it to you to go off half-cocked without even knowing the facts.

Back to back days of Salisbury steak at the center Atlgramps?

[daharris80]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

There are tons of houses, townhouses and low rise apartments being developed or planned south of the North Spring MARTA. I cannot wrapped my head around the logic of asking citizens to drive further in TRAFFIC to North Springs because we are classing that location as a commuter station and are limiting parking options at the Dunwoody station.

This isn't even a reality. Sandy Springs station is less than a mile North and Medical Center is about a mile South of the Dunwoody Station. No one is asking anyone to avoid all three of those stations and drive to North Springs. Between those 4 stations there is more than adequate parking without anyone having to drive further than needed.

The developer is adding a lot under this new development, Perimeter Mall has a massive garage just north, there are the two Marta lots directly to the West (one to be sold to the developer here), State Farm is adding tons of parking directly to the south, and if you prefer surface parking there is are massive lots everywhere else around this station. There is literally no need to build another parking garage and the developer and Marta (who are both very familiar with their needs and uses) both thought this deal was beneficial.

[GTdan]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I live behind Phipps and I can't recollect ever seeing a bus. So are you suggesting the option for people living South of the Spring station go wait for a bus to drive them to the Dunwoody station, to then wait for a MARTA train to take them to work and then vice versa in the evening. Come on...this is Atlanta.

The cost is park is $5 a day and is a revenue generator for MARTA.

MARTA only charges $5 per day if you are parked in one of their decks for longer than 24 hours. Under 24 hours is free. I highly doubt they generate much revenue from this parking deck.

Source: http://www.itsmarta.com/parking-fees.aspx

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Dumb question: What makes a TOD? State Farm phase I is by the MARTA with 650K of office, 5K retail and zero residential. Is that considered a TOD? Trammell Crow's proposal is by the MARTA with 2 buildings (350K of office & 200 hotel rooms), no retail or residential. Is that a TOD development? Because I don't see either one contributing to making the Perimeter a walkable - carless area.

This is a great question and I'm glad you brought it up. While the term is relatively loose, I'd consider high street TOD, but not state farm or trammel crow's developments. When I worked for the DOT in DC, the emphasis was always on creating a sense of community in a small, walkable, urban footprint directly supported by the transit station.

"Transit-oriented development (TOD) creates compact, mixed-use communities near transit where people enjoy easy access to jobs and services. Well-done TOD connects transit to desirable places to live, work and visit that feature amenities like entertainment venues, parks, retail, restaurants, an improved pedestrian environment and diverse housing choices." - FTA

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by jwbab

Selig plans billion-dollar project on Upper Westside

Link: https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2017/08/11/selig-plans-billion-dollar-project-on-upper.html

This is fantastic.

Its remarkable that old warehouses can be retrofitted into something cool and relevant but this is a lost cause /s.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Martinman

This is fantastic.

Its remarkable that old warehouses can be retrofitted into something cool and relevant but this is a lost cause /s.

If I am not mistaken Martinman that is an office building - not a warehouse. If you look at most if not all of the areas where developers are doing adaptive reuse projects, they are in areas of the city where the real estate is cheaper. Also the cost of renovation is cheaper than replacing.

With respect to this debate we have been having, those of us in favor of demoing the building are only supporting this side because we do not see this as a project any developer would target for an adaptive reuse project because of the cost involved. Therefore it will just sit there and shit up the neighborhood for years to come. Make sense?

[BlueSangha]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I live behind Phipps and I can't recollect ever seeing a bus. So are you suggesting the option for people living South of the Spring station go wait for a bus to drive them to the Dunwoody station, to then wait for a MARTA train to take them to work and then vice versa in the evening. Come on...this is Atlanta.

The cost is park is $5 a day and is a revenue generator for MARTA.

Several buses go up and down peachtree, Lennox and piedmont, all of which serve several train stations. One can get nearly anywhere one needs to be if they have to, I did it for 15 yrs.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I live behind Phipps and I can't recollect ever seeing a bus. So are you suggesting the option for people living South of the Spring station go wait for a bus to drive them to the Dunwoody station, to then wait for a MARTA train to take them to work and then vice versa in the evening. Come on...this is Atlanta.

The cost is park is $5 a day and is a revenue generator for MARTA.

What does living behind Phipps have to do with the discussion about the Dunwoody Station giving up a parking deck? Being blissfully ignorant of the facts in order to garner support for your viewpoint just drops all credibility.

And as someone else noted MARTA charges if you're parked over 24 hours- most people aren't going to be parking that long for a daily commute for over 24 hours - they're only doing that to take advantage of someone parking and riding to the airport, etc.

There are other options in the area for commuters to get to the HRT lines- to insist that the only viable option will ever be single-occupant drivers who need to park here still shows a blissful ignorance of the future of transportation.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

This is a great question and I'm glad you brought it up. While the term is relatively loose, I'd consider high street TOD, but not state farm or trammel crow's developments. When I worked for the DOT in DC, the emphasis was always on creating a sense of community in a small, walkable, urban footprint directly supported by the transit station.

"Transit-oriented development (TOD) creates compact, mixed-use communities near transit where people enjoy easy access to jobs and services. Well-done TOD connects transit to desirable places to live, work and visit that feature amenities like entertainment venues, parks, retail, restaurants, an improved pedestrian environment and diverse housing choices." - FTA

Just because they're being developed by different entities on separate parcels doesn't mean they're not TOD projects -" the sense of community" aspect isn't being done by one entity. It's each development/parcel that's adding to the sense of community over time.

[gt7348b]

Regarding the Dunwoody Parking deck - Dunwoody's parking is significantly underutilized. Additionally, the parking deck to the east (the one to support the development) is actually owned by the mall and was leased to MARTA for 20 years (it is up this year). The park and ride demand at Dunwoody station should easily be met by the single, MARTA owned deck to the west.

[(four 0 four)]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

If you look at most if not all of the areas where developers are doing adaptive reuse projects, they are in areas of the city where the real estate is cheaper. Also the cost of renovation is cheaper than replacing.

With respect to this debate we have been having, those of us in favor of demoing the building are only supporting this side because we do not see this as a project any developer would target for an adaptive reuse project because of the cost involved. Therefore it will just sit there and shit up the neighborhood for years to come. Make sense?

Here's a short list of adaptive reuse projects where the "real estate is cheaper":
Candler Building-downtown
Ponce City Market-Historic Old 4th Ward
The Office-downtown
230 Peachtree-downtown
Imperial Hotel-downtown
Georgian Terrace-midtown
The Biltmore-midtown
The Ellis-downtown
Rich's-downtown
Macy's-downtown

Below is part of an article about adaptive reuse written by Charles Pinkham with Portman Holdings. I'm going to guess he has a bit more experience/knowledge about these things than you do.

In basic terms, adaptive reuse is the redevelopment of an old building for a purpose other than the originally intended use. Developers are increasingly considering adaptive reuse to deliver projects with authenticity and a more attractive cost basis.
Adaptive reuse projects are frequently an appealing investment proposition. Simply put, it’s often cheaper to buy an existing building and redevelop it than it is to build that same building from the ground up.
Beyond cost savings, the neighborhoods surrounding adaptive reuse projects typically feature a unique character and authenticity. They are often close to public attractions, and most importantly, they provide end users with distinctive urban cultural and social experiences.
As more people regain a taste for urban living and move from suburbs back into redeveloped cities, many are attracted to buildings that maintain historical elements and character, features that cannot be built from the ground up. Due to the uniqueness of these places, they often command above market rents.

Make sense?

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

What does living behind Phipps have to do with the discussion about the Dunwoody Station giving up a parking deck? Being blissfully ignorant of the facts in order to garner support for your viewpoint just drops all credibility.

And as someone else noted MARTA charges if you're parked over 24 hours- most people aren't going to be parking that long for a daily commute for over 24 hours - they're only doing that to take advantage of someone parking and riding to the airport, etc.

There are other options in the area for commuters to get to the HRT lines- to insist that the only viable option will ever be single-occupant drivers who need to park here still shows a blissful ignorance of the future of transportation.

If I am not mistaken this forum is for people of all backgrounds and depths of knowledge. It is more productive to be informative than nasty in your responses. Ex. ALT3K your are mistaken.... is better than ATL3K you are "blissfully ignorant". Additionally, I was not aware this was a debate rather a discussion. Therefore, I am not trying to garner support or win the argument. I am smart enough to realize there are people smarter than me on this subject and on this forum. With that said, it just seems (in my opinion) those of you who are more knowledgeable tend to talk down to the rest of us. (not related to you) Not to mention, for those of us that disagree with the most of the group (i.e. The Emory building debate) are automatically labeled as the stupid ones or the adversary.

The reason I mentioned I lived behind Phipps is because I was implying the bus service in the more urban areas is closer to where people live/within walking distance than in upper Buckhead/Perimeter.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by (four 0 four)

Here's a short list of adaptive reuse projects where the "real estate is cheaper":
Candler Building-downtown
Ponce City Market-Historic Old 4th Ward
The Office-downtown
230 Peachtree-downtown
Imperial Hotel-downtown
Georgian Terrace-midtown
The Biltmore-midtown
The Ellis-downtown
Rich's-downtown
Macy's-downtown

Below is part of an article about adaptive reuse written by Charles Pinkham with Portman Holdings. I'm going to guess he has a bit more experience/knowledge about these things than you do.



Make sense?

No it doesn't make sense. Every project you have listed above it was cheaper (at the time) to renovate than replace.

For instance Ponce City Market. Jamestown paid the city $27 Million and invested $180 Million into the renovation. Care to guess how much it would have cost to build 2.1 million square feet from ground up? I don't know, but I do know Selig estimated their 1105 West Peachtree development (600K of office, 150 hotel rooms and 80 condos) to be $450 Million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponce_City_Market

The City sold the property for $27 million to Jamestown, a private-equity group, on July 11, 2011.[10] Jamestown, which also invested in the redevelopment of the White Provision retail and restaurant complex in West Midtown, bankrolled the 180-million-dollar plans by developer Green Street Properties to convert it into a mixed-use development [11] In a July 2011 interview, Michael Phillips, managing director of Jamestown, said that Jamestown is focused on Ponce City Market becoming the fourth nationally relevant food hall in the U.S., alongside Pike Place in Seattle, the Ferry Building in San Francisco, and Jamestown's own Chelsea Market in New York City.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Just because they're being developed by different entities on separate parcels doesn't mean they're not TOD projects -" the sense of community" aspect isn't being done by one entity. It's each development/parcel that's adding to the sense of community over time.

I could be wrong, but I believe what Street Advocate is saying is just because State Farm is by the MARTA and the Trammell Crow development is by the MARTA does not make them TODs per se. To be a true TOD you need to incorporate at best "...desirable places to live, work and visit that feature amenities like entertainment venues, parks, retail, restaurants, an improved pedestrian environment and diverse housing choices." Or at a minimum, mixed-use developments that incorporate high density residential, both of which are missing from the State Farm and Trammell Crow developments.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I could be wrong, but I believe what Street Advocate is saying is just because State Farm is by the MARTA and the Trammell Crow development is by the MARTA does not make them TODs per se. To be a true TOD you need to incorporate at best "...desirable places to live, work and visit that feature amenities like entertainment venues, parks, retail, restaurants, an improved pedestrian environment and diverse housing choices." Or at a minimum, mixed-use developments that incorporate high density residential, both of which are missing from the State Farm and Trammell Crow developments.

Bingo. Just because you build something next to transit doesn't mean it's automatically TOD.

[Atlriser]

Adaptive reuse is practically impossible for medical purposes. Codes and requirements for medical facilities are very costly and old buildings simply can't meet the needs for new medical needs not only financially but cost wise. Why do you think the old Baptist medical center on 10th Street went from medical to student housing. Look at the cost for the new tower at Piedmont. Old facilities just can't be renovated into current medical needs due to technology needs, code requirements and costs. Period bottom line.

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

If I am not mistaken Martinman that is an office building - not a warehouse. If you look at most if not all of the areas where developers are doing adaptive reuse projects, they are in areas of the city where the real estate is cheaper. Also the cost of renovation is cheaper than replacing.

With respect to this debate we have been having, those of us in favor of demoing the building are only supporting this side because we do not see this as a project any developer would target for an adaptive reuse project because of the cost involved. Therefore it will just sit there and shit up the neighborhood for years to come. Make sense?

Below are some of the active or recent adaptive re-use office projects within Midtown alone. Your pointing out that it was cheaper to retrofit than build new for the previously mentioned examples (which is true) actually contradicts your claim that doing the same with the Emory building is not feasible. Your argument only makes sense if one accepts that your completely baseless claims are factual. I do not. So no. It doesn't make sense.

1438 WEST PEACHTREE

1280 West Peachtree Street

1372 Peachtree

Perkins+Will Atlanta Office

[Chris Creech]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

With respect to this debate we have been having, those of us in favor of demoing the building are only supporting this side because we do not see this as a project any developer would target for an adaptive reuse project because of the cost involved. Therefore it will just sit there and shit up the neighborhood for years to come. Make sense?

This isn't a spec project, it's an Emory hospital project, they really have total control over this. If you left it up to developers when would we ever see any adaptive reuse? If it's all about maximizing profits at the lowest costs for development. Yeah I know they're in business and have to make a profit, but they're also responsible for their actions and the impacts on the city. The historic building that was saved as part of the Tech Computer Center, the developer had to be pressured to save. It's hard to argue that that development isn't a bit richer for the inclusion now though. Maybe the city should do more to encourage redevelopment though, easements, tax breaks, to encourage developers to go that route. Atlanta historically just doesn't value historic buildings, but they should. Just shrugging it off as making it hard for developers to maximize profits doesn't make sense. Atlanta though, especially Midtown, seems to still have that allowing development at any costs mentality, just glad to have anything going on. If the city though doesn't push for responsible development and historic preservation in the current boom though - when would they ever?