VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

^ Absolutely. I've argued before, exactly for Alstom's approach: invest selectively to get the best return on travel time savings or to enable future upgrades. Upgrade the rest later.

I am curious to see what other bidders suggest. We could well get a Shinkansen bid.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If the reduction in travel times and proposed speeds are met then it'll be a significant upgrade over the current service. Currently Ottawa-Toronto is between 4hr35 and 4hr55 which isn't great but is equivalent to driving depending on the day. If that can be brought down to 3hr15/3hr30 then not only will it be faster than driving but increasingly closer to flying.

Canada isn't ready for ultra-fast Shinkansen between Ottawa and Montreal but we are ready for increased frequencies, reliability, and improved times. The first step is becoming an option that's better than driving.

The Alstom proposal is for Shinkansen type speeds, but only for part of the line.

Via HFR even with 200km/h trains proposes ~3 hour travel times for Toronto - Ottawa. HFR is a huge benefit for Toronto - Ottawa as it takes a more direct route than existing services, so travel times are cut massively.

Alstom's proposal is closer to 2 hours, while a true Shinkansen type service with high operating speeds the entire length would be closer to 1.5 hours. So Alstom is getting it closer to total-HSR while leaving 30 mins of travel time on the table to cut costs and make it cheaper to build, basically.

I am interested to see how Alstom calculated their travel times however as their presentation only showed one 350km/h segment of about 150km long between Toronto and Ottawa, which would have cut only about 20 minutes off the schedule over 200km/h operations. There must be other assumptions to get a hour lopped off vs. HFR.

[TorontoDrew]

Will Gare Centrale be able to handle more trains if passenger rail became more popular then air travel between Ottawa, Toronto, Quebec, and Montreal?

[Truenorth00]

Who says HFR trains have to stop/terminate at Gare Centrale? Right now there's a lot of debate of station placement because there is no easy way to continue East to Quebec City.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Yes, but anything can be upgraded for a cost. To have HSR you need complete grade separation, curve reduction, and bridge expansions or replacement. A rail/rail separation over the CP tracks between Alexandria, ON and Coteau, QC would need to be built. Bypasses will need to be built around many built up residential areas.

I am guessing you do not know the tracks you speak of. Much of the Smith Falls to Coteau is straight. Sounds to me you just made a list without knowing anything about the tracks in question.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Alstom plan doesn't upgrade Montreal-Ottawa substantially. Only up to 200kph.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ Absolutely. I've argued before, exactly for Alstom's approach: invest selectively to get the best return on travel time savings or to enable future upgrades. Upgrade the rest later.

I am curious to see what other bidders suggest. We could well get a Shinkansen bid.

Well, an upgrade from 140 to 200 is a good start. As you say, get a HFR line up and running with some HSR elements and phase it in.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

HFR is not aiming to be "true high-speed rail". It's aiming to have certain travel time reductions. Alstom's plan largely aims at reducing travel times from Toronto to Ottawa and Montreal, by speeding up the Peterborough-Smiths Falls portion to > 150 mph. They are just being strategic with investments.

And doing that will help a lot.

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Will Gare Centrale be able to handle more trains if passenger rail became more popular then air travel between Ottawa, Toronto, Quebec, and Montreal?

Wouldn't that be a wonderful problem to encounter?
With 7 platforms and 20 tracks, one can assume they should be able to handle the higher traffic.

[Wigs]

If I had Musk's money I'd seriously consider investing in Shinkansen type Windsor-Quebec City corridor in a P3 agreement.

Oh how glorious this would be
• Video Link

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ Absolutely. I've argued before, exactly for Alstom's approach: invest selectively to get the best return on travel time savings or to enable future upgrades. Upgrade the rest later.

I am curious to see what other bidders suggest. We could well get a Shinkansen bid.

makes the most logical sense

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Wigs

If I had Musk's money I'd seriously consider investing in Shinkansen type Windsor-Quebec City corridor in a P3 agreement.

If you were Musk, you would not be doing this as you have no way to control every part of it. Musk could have built HSR in the USA, but he has yet to do anything about it.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am guessing you do not know the tracks you speak of. Much of the Smith Falls to Coteau is straight. Sounds to me you just made a list without knowing anything about the tracks.

Take a look at Google maps and look at the curves between Moose Creek and Alexandria. Not only have I looked at the maps I have also rode the train. This is why the HSR between Ottawa and Montreal originally chosen by Via was the ex CP route.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Take a look at Google maps and look at the curves between Moose Creek and Alexandria. Not only have I looked at the maps I have also rode the train. This is why the HSR between Ottawa and Montreal originally chosen by Via was the ex CP route.

I will concede that the corner there may be an issue.

HSR tracks can be banked, called super elevation to allow a curve to be taken at speed.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Who says HFR trains have to stop/terminate at Gare Centrale? Right now there's a lot of debate of station placement because there is no easy way to continue East to Quebec City.

That's kind of why I was asking that. I've never really thought about where the railway goes leaving from Montreal towards Quebec. Does it cross over at the Prairies River?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

That's kind of why I was asking that. I've never really thought about where the railway goes leaving from Montreal towards Quebec.

If it will be proper HSR, it will be electric. If it is electric, then just build a tunnel in and out. That could be part of a second or third phase.

[Nouvellecosse]

I still think they should turn the Parc Loblaws back into a station. It's such a cool building and right in the centre of town on a metro line. And if there's a big enough budget for a new tunnel, they can build a metro or REM shuttle line under Parc. That would be much more useful to far more people than a tunnel only for VIA.

[TorontoDrew]

I'd love to see Hamilton part of any HSR network as well, and if they could use their old Luna Station that would be great. Maybe not as frequent but a HSR to Niagara would be amazing as well.

[goodgrowth]

They should just do it right from the beginning and do a true HSR backbone connecting the major cities.

Do an incremental phased approach to see how it goes:

Phase 1 Ottawa-Montreal

and if that goes well

Phase 2 Toronto-Ottawa

and if that goes well incrementally extend off that backbone in the future.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

That's kind of why I was asking that. I've never really thought about where the railway goes leaving from Montreal towards Quebec. Does it cross over at the Prairies River?

No idea. It's entirely up to the winning contractor. The Mayor of Montreal and Quebec City and Quebec ministers are making lots of noise about they want a connection from downtown Montreal to downtown Quebec City. But the private development model doesn't allow for political interference. So they can be loud. But nobody will care.

They kinda screwed themselves by handing over the tunnel to REM with zero future compatibility requirements.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it will be proper HSR, it will be electric. If it is electric, then just build a tunnel in and out. That could be part of a second or third phase.

Highly unlikely any private developer will pay for multi-billion dollar tunnel going East. If Quebec wants that, they'll have to pay. If they don't, they'll take what they get.

The developers priority is maximizing the business case. That means Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Alstom has all but come out and said that, when they said they wanted to compete with airlines. Not a lot of air traffic between Montreal and Quebec City.

This is the beauty of the private development model. They don't have to listen to anybody who isn't showing up with a big cheque. They'll do what it takes to get it built and make it profitable.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I still think they should turn the Parc Loblaws back into a station. It's such a cool building and right in the centre of town on a metro line. And if there's a big enough budget for a new tunnel, they can build a metro or REM shuttle line under Parc. That would be much more useful to far more people than a tunnel only for VIA.

That is a beautiful building, but I still think we need to have downtown stations as much as possible to eliminate last mile issues for as many travellers as possible, especially business travellers.

I think the Alstom plan suggests using Lucien L'Allier (Windsor) station. It's a terminus station with no through running unless you reverse course, but these trains will probably have cab cars on either end and I think Montreal makes sense as a terminus, since the number of through travellers coming from Ontario and going to QC, or vice versa, is quite small. Montreal is the destination for people coming from either side*.

*EDIT: There's probably a need for people from Quebec City and TR to get to YUL. Maybe they can run trains that go straight to YUL from QC and TR without even stopping in downtown MTL.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

I'd love to see Hamilton part of any HSR network as well, and if they could use their old Luna Station that would be great. Maybe not as frequent but a HSR to Niagara would be amazing as well.

It could be part of a longer Maple Leaf HSR.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Highly unlikely any private developer will pay for multi-billion dollar tunnel going East. If Quebec wants that, they'll have to pay. If they don't, they'll take what they get.

The developers priority is maximizing the business case. That means Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Alstom has all but come out and said that, when they said they wanted to compete with airlines. Not a lot of air traffic between Montreal and Quebec City.

This is the beauty of the private development model. They don't have to listen to anybody who isn't showing up with a big cheque. They'll do what it takes to get it built and make it profitable.

I was not suggesting that a private developer pays for a public passenger rail tunnel.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I still think they should turn the Parc Loblaws back into a station. It's such a cool building and right in the centre of town on a metro line.

That would be great if they did that. It such an amazing building.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

That would be great if they did that. It such an amazing building.

The blue line is the appendix of Montreal’s Metro system, avoiding downtown just like Toronto’s Sheppard Subway. Canora or Namur would be a lot better place to connect with the Metro network, but difficult to imagine enough space for platforms and a station building at either location…