Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

Yeah, ferry capacity is pretty minimal. Realistically they could only bring in a few thousand people for a game.

I agree that greenspace can be important but I also think that a lot of it in Halifax is greenspace for the sake of greenspace - bits of land that are underused and underdeveloped but left alone because of a dogmatic view that nothing should change in the city. I find the same thing with a lot of heritage debates; some people in Halifax just instinctively recoil in horror and don't bother actually looking at the situation. That is silly. I see no problem with regularly re-evaluating the use of public lands, particularly the Commons.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

- Any Dartmouth site is going to be compromised by that location. I do not believe any site that relies on ferries will be feasible -- imagine bobbing along on the Woodside ferry for 30 minutes each way, just so you can transfer to other public transit at the other end. For that reason Shannon is preferable to Woodside, because it at least is close to the MacKay bridge, but neither is ideal.

30 minutes? Dude, the crossing takes 10, 12 minutes at the most. Plus I would assume a Woodside location would be adjacent to the circ, a nice big highway which can accomidate a lot of cars. If they could get something going along Atlantic Street, it would also be nice and close to that new mall they built from the Moirs factory, and I could see a few eateries or bars opening up. Plus it's a 10 minute walk from the ferry.
There's also the Russel Lake West development, if something could be built around there, maybe on the south side of the Mount Hope extension. I don't remember what the master plan for that area was, but there's retail going in there as well.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

30 minutes? Dude, the crossing takes 10, 12 minutes at the most. Plus I would assume a Woodside location would be adjacent to the circ, a nice big highway which can accomidate a lot of cars. If they could get something going along Atlantic Street, it would also be nice and close to that new mall they built from the Moirs factory, and I could see a few eateries or bars opening up. Plus it's a 10 minute walk from the ferry.
There's also the Russel Lake West development, if something could be built around there, maybe on the south side of the Mount Hope extension. I don't remember what the master plan for that area was, but there's retail going in there as well.

All well and good for the 30% or so of your potential market that lives east of the big water. Unless the 3rd bridge gets built at the same time, 70% of your market has no convenient access -- c'mon, the MacDonald bridge is the nearest crossing -- and thus would often avoid the place.

As for the travel time for the Woodside ferry, all I know is that it uses the same pokey scows that are used for the harbor crossing, and that takes 12 minutes. The trip to Woodside is at least twice as long.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

All well and good for the 30% or so of your potential market that lives east of the big water. Unless the 3rd bridge gets built at the same time, 70% of your market has no convenient access -- c'mon, the MacDonald bridge is the nearest crossing -- and thus would often avoid the place.

Man oh man, if a 2 minute trip across a bridge is enough to discourage thousands of people from going to a game, this city really is in rough shape. Besides, I think most people coming from the mainland area would take the MacKay Bridge and the Circ, which is a hell of a lot faster to Woodside.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

As for the travel time for the Woodside ferry, all I know is that it uses the same pokey scows that are used for the harbor crossing, and that takes 12 minutes. The trip to Woodside is at least twice as long.

You really should do a little research before you shoot your mouth off like that. The Woodside trip takes no more than 11-12 minutes, and it's roughly the same distance. How do I know this? I took the Woodside ferry twice a day when I was working in Halifax. But I suppose you know more about it than I do, don't you.
Hell, don't take my word for it, grab a transit schedule. 12 minutes according to that.

[fenwick16]

If the stadium is built so that it is aesthetically pleasing then in 50 years it will be considered to be a heritage site (look at Fenway Park). In my mind, I see a stadium with a sunken bowl and a second tier of seats that only raises 40 feet above the ground. The side facing the Public Gardens would be lined with brick and covered in ivy. I think that a stadium could be built at a moderate price that fits into the surrounding area. So to me the stadium will be a new landmark that will look good on the Wanderers Grounds and it would continue to be used for what it was designed for (a football field). However, I wouldn't want to see a 200 foot high domed stadium on the Wanderers Grounds next to the Public Gardens.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Again, I really think this consideration of bus routes will only cause you to overlook sites with loads of potential. Buses can go anywhere. If we were talking about a link to a metro, tram, etc, that would be different. For this reason, I do think possible ferry connections should be considered - as this is our only public transit infrastructure, with lots of room for expansion, and a willingness from the city to expand it in the future.

I also this Exhibition Park is not such a good spot. It is too remote. While it doesn't need to be dropped into the middle of the commons, it shouldn't be somewhere without potential to act as a catalyst for other growth. In the end, as these projects are expensive and lose money, they are often used as part of a bigger development project. And building it somewhere like Exhibition Park, or Dartmouth Crossing, will benefit no one, and may actually only turn out to be a burden on the city.

For these reasons I think Dartmouth is by far the best choice at this stage. Woodside area is ok, with trails from Dartmouth (think of high-income Kings Wharf residents, within walking distance or easy bus ride(even for those usually not willing to take a bus), ferry connections from Halifax, highway connections, potential for some high-density development around it, a view of Halifax - making it still seem very connected to the city. And for all these same reasons - Shannon Park is also ideal (with much potential for a new ferry terminal) - Both sites have current highway access and are easily accessible from outlying areas such as bedford, fall river, sackville, etc.

I couldn't agree with you more, PLanarchy. Although I would put site preference in the opposite order, Shannon Park followed by Woodside. If the Circ is the main transportation artery, then Shannon is a little more central, allowing commuters to reach the Stadium from both directions. It would be a little less onerous for Haligonians to reach too, which should make Keith happy Easy ferry access (just for fun), and buses could be routed from all over the city.

It seems like a lot of groundwork has already been done here by the CWG bid committee, and the stakeholder support for this site was in place. Pick and retain some of the stronger elements of the Commonwealth site plan, like the ferry terminal, the transit hub and some of the parkland/public space. Get rid of other facilities like the aquatic centre and athletes village in favour of appropriate mixed uses (residential condos, apartments, townhouses, and some retail and commercial/recreational) so the place doesn't become a ghosttown 345 days a year.

Any site will be prone to bad weather, be it on the peninsula, in exhibition park, Bayer's Lake, Woodside, etc., so I would not bother to take that into consideration. Anyways an owners group will do all those studies anyways.. maybe the CWG committee already did. I just can't imagine this getting built on the peninsula, its just a reality of Halifax politics. I could be wrong, and I will be the first to admit so to anyone who shows solid market research supporting a site downtown by both public and politicians. I really, really do not want to see a stadium built far from downtown in the woods or suburbs, so Shannon is where I put my wishes.

[fenwick16]

Part of the experience of going to an event at the Skydome (Rogers Centre) or Air Canada Centre in Toronto, or Camden Yards (in Baltimore) isn't just the event itself but going to the city and seeing other attractions. I am afraid that going to Dartmouth Crossings, Shannon Park or Woodside isn't going to be the same experience as going to a central location in Halifax. If the Skydome had of been built in say North York (north of Toronto) then there just wouldn't be the same ambiance and feeling of excitement as being right downtown in Toronto surrounded by the city. Out of towners aren't going to feel like they are in Halifax when they go to Shannon Park, Dartmouth Crossings or Woodside.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

I just can't imagine this getting built on the peninsula, its just a reality of Halifax politics.

The Metro Centre was built downtown in the 70s.

Like I said before, I think people have an exaggerated opinion of how important and powerful the squeaky wheels are. You hear about them a lot, but in the end they don't necessarily influence things much. The big hurdle is getting the funding in place.

[fenwick16]

This stadium changed the style of baseball parks in North America. It is also interesting to note that there is a major football stadium, baseball park and convention centre, all in the same compact area. There is very little parking associated with the three venues. http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Baltim...259&longitude=-76.619894&geocode=ADDRESS . I had the opportunity to visit this city and the Camden Yards baseball stadium. In many ways Baltimore reminded me of Halifax.

I reprinted just the first few paragraphs of this article. The full article is at: http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/american/baltimore.html

After years of adhering to bland utilitarian concepts, a renaissance occurred in ballpark building in Baltimore, Maryland, where the retro-style Oriole Park at Camden Yards opened in 1992.

Camden Yards changed just about everything that fans now expect of a ballpark, from location to amenities and nuisances. Its construction officially made multi-purpose concrete stadiums in the suburbs a thing of the past, and now ballparks are as much a point of civic pride as the Major League teams themselves.

Constructed for what now seems a paltry sum of just $110 million, Camden Yards helped pioneer many of the modern-day concepts that ballparks at all levels of the sport now embrace, chiefly a traditional, yet original, design that blends into a highly-visible downtown location with a signature feature distinct to the ballpark.

It’s been said that the three keys to success in real estate are location, location, and location. That’s where Camden Yards first excels. Built at the southwest corner of downtown Baltimore, the ballpark is about a 15-minute walk to the city’s fabulous Inner Harbor. The skyscrapers that make up the Baltimore skyline hover just beyond the ballpark and are visible to the majority of fans in the three-tiered grandstand.

The signature feature of Camden Yards is The Warehouse. No ballpark built in the modern era that Baltimore inspired has been able to incorporate such a striking feature. The beloved B&O Warehouse, which was originally going to be torn down to make way for the ballpark, was preserved and assimilated into the design of Camden Yards. In addition to its aesthetic beauty the Warehouse serves many functional purposes, such as housing the Orioles team shop, and because of its omnipresent size it is visible from anywhere inside of the ballpark.

[Empire]

Huskies stadium has potential. The stands could be built above the roof line of the tower. The stands on the side of the current stadium could be steep and extend to the edge of the Loyola parking lot (c/w roof) and continue to wrap around the Gorsebrook lounge end as high as the upper bowl at the Metro Centre until it reaches the club seats at the tower. There were 11,000 for the exibition game between the Ticats & the Argos so there are 9,000 seats to go. The stadium has to be rebuilt anyway so why not add some seats? Once the CFL is established then a more permanent site 30,000 seats expandable to 50,000 could be sought. Willow park area?

Perhaps big concerts would still be held at the commons and Huskies Stadium would be used for CFL, university football, high school football, local soccer and why not a national soccer team?

[fenwick16]

This was posted by monctonrad in the CFL for the Martimes thread. This would also work for the Atlantic Schooners team in Halifax. It could also work for a stadium.

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/front/article/879932

Published Saturday December 5th, 2009

Saskatchewan shows how small city can succeed in CFL
Neil Hodge

CALGARY - Moncton has a role model if it seriously looks into the possibility of landing a Canadian Football League franchise some day.

Meet the Saskatchewan Roughriders, a community-owned team that is operated as a non-profit corporation. They're located in the league's smallest market in Regina, but have still found a way to become a marquee franchise that's absolutely bursting with pride.

"We have an 11-member board of directors who are business people in the province," said Saskatchewan governor Rob Pletch, who's also chairman of the board of directors.

"We sell shares in the team which are really membership interests. We've sold about 6,000 shares and raised money for the club in that way. We invite these people to an annual meeting to elect the board of directors, to approve the financial statements and treat them like shareholders.''

It costs $250 for a share in the Roughriders and there's a limit of 20 shares per person. Pletch points out there's no economic value to owning a share.

"It's really a symbolic indication that tells people 'I'm an owner,'" he said. "We give them a certificate that they frame and put on their wall. It's really an indication of an attachment to the team that goes beyond buying a season ticket.

"It's a situation where everyone in the province feels like they own the Roughriders. We have an open annual meeting that people can attend. We publish our financial statements. It's a very open concept. It's been a very successful business model for us."

The Toronto Argonauts will be the home team when the CFL's first-ever regular season game in Atlantic Canada takes place next September in Moncton. Their opponent and the date haven't yet been confirmed.

Moncton is looking to host one regular season game per year for the next five seasons and it's really anyone's guess what will happen longer term. With a new stadium that could be brought up to CFL standards, there's increased speculation of a Moncton-based Atlantic franchise. The CFL will have nine clubs when Ottawa begins play in 2013. The league would love to go coast to coast by adding a 10th team in the Atlantic region further down the road.

"For a franchise that might be considered for Atlantic Canada, I think the business model that we use could work there,'' said Pletch. "It creates a regional feeling of attachment to the team. It's not one person that owns the team. Everybody owns the team."

Saskatchewan lost 28-27 to the Montreal Alouettes in the Grey Cup on Sunday in Calgary. The Roughriders play in a 31,000 capacity stadium that's sold out every game, they have 24,000 season tickets and they draw fans from throughout the province with many people driving several hours to watch them play.

The Roughriders, one of the CFL's top money makers, did $6.2 million in merchandise sales in 2008 and that represented 54 per cent of the league's overall total. They expect to surpass that figure when the final numbers are tallied for 2009. There are 1.3 million people within a 2.5 hour drive of Moncton. There's a little over one million people in Saskatchewan and the Roughriders play out of Regina, which has a population of 200,000.

"I think the Maritimes do have some similarities to the Prairie provinces," said Pletch. "We're the only professional sports franchise in Saskatchewan. It would be the same thing for the Maritimes if Moncton gets a CFL team. "The population base is similar. We rely on regional fan support and it would have to be the same thing in the Maritimes. I think what we do in terms of a business model would translate well in Atlantic Canada."

The new Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium will have a 20,000 capacity for next year's CFL game. But the potential is there to expand the venue to at least 25,000.

"That's a good size for the CFL," said Saskatchewan alternate governor Roger Brandvold, who's also vice-chairman of the board of governors.

"You can make it work in the low twenties if you price your tickets right, you sell lots of merchandise, you get control of concessions and you have the proper corporate support."

It's about a $10 million annual budget to operate a CFL club. Moncton Mayor George LeBlanc met with Roughriders management and Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall during Grey Cup Week.

"We talked about how they built their community ownership model," said LeBlanc. "With no major metropolitan area, the Roughriders really reach out into the community around the province and it works tremendous for them.

"Saskatchewan has a small population, but it's one of the most successful CFL teams both on the field and from a financial standpoint. It makes sense to me that if someone wanted to establish a CFL team in the Atlantic provinces they would be the model to follow."

There's a larger population within 2.5 hours of Moncton than Regina.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Empire

Huskies stadium has potential. The stands could be built above the roof line of the tower. The stands on the side of the current stadium could be steep and extend to the edge of the Loyola parking lot (c/w roof) and continue to wrap around the Gorsebrook lounge end as high as the upper bowl at the Metro Centre until it reaches the club seats at the tower. There were 11,000 for the exibition game between the Ticats & the Argos so there are 9,000 seats to go. The stadium has to be rebuilt anyway so why not add some seats? Once the CFL is established then a more permanent site 30,000 seats expandable to 50,000 could be sought. Willow park area?

Perhaps big concerts would still be held at the commons and Huskies Stadium would be used for CFL, university football, high school football, local soccer and why not a national soccer team?

Absolutely! I agree whole-heartedly and said this a few pages ago. It could work much the same way Molson Stadium does, where the Allouettes and the McGill Redmen play. Sure it may be a small CFL venue, but it is a reasonable start, and fulfills (I think everyone here) our desire to have a unique and central location.

[terrynorthend]

As for the CFL coming to Halifax or Moncton, I know that Moncton has an exhibition or neutral site game planned, like Halifax did a few years ago. It's worth pointing out/asking.. Halifax had a second game all lined up the following year, between the Argos and Renegades. It was canceled last minute because the Renegades folded. Since then, no more serious talk of Halifax and CFL has taken place, the focus seems to have switched to Moncton. (Especially amongst CFL brass) What happened?

Did maybe our municipal leadership became over-focused on the CWG and drop the ball (pun intended), or was it perhaps the opposite. Maybe the CFL was counting on the CWG stadium down the road (prepared to make do with SMU for a few years until then) and when we walked away from the CWG, the CFL walked away from us.

[fenwick16]

Good point. The CFL probably decided that Halifax simply wasn't going to get a stadium anytime in the foreseeable future.

[BravoZulu]

It would appear Moncton has one thing that Halifax is lacking and that is political support at least at the municipal level

[terrynorthend]

Let me preface by saying I am openly playing Devil's advocate. Personally I would love to see the CFL flourish in all of Atlantic Canada. However, I'm really skeptical about the CFL's long term chances in Moncton. Let me be clear, I believe they are leading the charge in landing a CFL franchise, and I'll go one step further to say I expect a franchise in Moncton within five years. I just don't think they will last; doomed from the outset.

Its great that the Roughriders are so successful. Kudos to Regina and Saskatchewan. Even more so given the small size of their market. However in the CFL they are sadly the exception rather than the rule. Ottawa, our Nation's Capital and a city of over one million, lost not one, but two teams in the last couple of decades due to financial problems. Toronto, a city of five million, which it has been pointed out earlier should be able to support 5 or 6 regional teams, can barely muster support and interest in their Argos. Maybe they are looking to the NFL and hopes of the Bills moving north, but since Thursday night's regular season game at the Roger's Center was not a sellout, I can't readily point to the NFL as the Boogeyman and reason why the CFL does less well than one would expect in Toronto. Heck it even seems there is more interest in MLS and Toronto FC than in CFL.

To compare Moncton to Saskatchewan is perilous. CFL has always been strong in the West in general, and Regina in particular. We are asking of an expansion team the success of a 100 year old storied franchise that's embraced through generations and considered a way of life. For Moncton to build their business model on tickets priced "to work at 20K seats", sales of merchandise for a novel team, and a commuter fanbase of 3 hour drives would really frighten me as an investor. I'd run faster than Kevin O'Leary from a husband and wife team selling board games or cooking dog biscuits. Revenue will be challenging and team costs will be high, stranded way out here in the far east. I don't believe the long term interest and financing can be sustained in Moncton, and would not be surprised to see a team fold within five years of establishment.

That's my tale of doom and gloom. Sorry to sound so negative, I sincerely hope to be proven wrong.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Let me preface by saying I am openly playing Devil's advocate. Personally I would love to see the CFL flourish in all of Atlantic Canada. However, I'm really skeptical about the CFL's long term chances in Moncton. Let me be clear, I believe they are leading the charge in landing a CFL franchise, and I'll go one step further to say I expect a franchise in Moncton within five years. I just don't think they will last; doomed from the outset.

I think hotel rooms are an issue for Moncton to be able to attract fans from over 2 hours away. Essentially most people attending from Halifax would have to make the round trip (5 hours) due to a lack of hotel rooms. Hotels are unlikely to spring up just for the demand of a few times a year. Halifax on the other hand has an ample supply of hotel rooms. There were 55,000 at Paul McCartney and most people stayed at hotels or with friends/family etc. When there is a concert in Moncton of 50,000 plus many people stay in tents or have a 2-3 horus bus car ride home.

[hfx_chris]

Expanding and refurbishing Huskies Stadium would at the very least show the CFL that Halifax is serious about football, and maybe land us a few more exhibition or regular season games to prove ourselves.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Upgrading or re-building Huskies Stadium to 20,000 seats could possibly work. I'd prefer to see 25,000 at least. However there is no possibility of hosting a Grey Cup game there. No way you could ever expand it temporarily to 45,000 - 50,000 seats. We need the capability to host a grey Cup game. The Grey Cup nets a good amount of $ (millions) for the owners as well would inject millions in the local economy. I say if we are going to build a stadium let's do it right.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

IMO we should only be considering sites that are large enough to construct the type of stadium we need (25,000 to 30,000 permanent seats with plenty of room to expand to 45,000 to 50,000 seats).