Edmonton Roads

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by feepa

Maybe you should move to the states. Universal Health care is one of the best things about Canada.

I'm guessing you don't know anyone who has had to wait months, or years for a specialist appointment, or surgery? I'm guessing you've never waited for a spot to open up for an MRI while some 'rich person' jumps the queue and uses a private clinic despite us "not having a two-tiered healthcare system". You also haven't heard of anyone flying to the south for a medical procedure that isn't covered up here, or would simply take too long to get.

Is our health care system better than that in the U.S.? Sure, in many ways. That doesn't mean they don't have us beat hands-down in others. We shouldn't be patting ourselves on our backs and not trying to innovate and improve.

Back to roads though, the idea is that if a province is in charge of health care but the feds hold the purse strings, any shortfall is made up by money that could be used for things like roads, because EVERYBODY will vote for health care over road repair/development.

I've tried to say before that all levels of government are to blame, but partisan hatred rules the day. #%^ I hate partisan focused democracy.

[feepa]

We should be finding ways to improve our public health system so everyone gets reasonable access in a reasonable amount of time, instead of just those that can pay. A two-tiered health system is great for those that can afford the second level, but takes resources and investment away from the public system.

I'm all for abolishing the party system... and figuring out a better democracy. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about the roadway system in Edmonton and Alberta...

We spend far too much money when the cost of labour and material are peaking, and then cut back far too much when the inverse happens. This is poor reactive planning and management, and that's solely at the provincial level. And yes, it may seem partisan to say it's all on the conservatives, but when you are the only party that's been in power for the last 45 years... It's hard to say it's not on them.

[Harrison]

In other news...I wish Edmonton had a more direct/faster access downtown from the southside (I know this is beating a dead horse). I was in Calgary this weekend and jealous of how direct their access is to the CBD coming from the north side.

I wish we had a Memorial Drive-esque route that started from Gateway Boulevard / Whitemud Dr to Jasper Ave. I believe there were talks of something like this with a tunnel under Whyte a few years back, but never had traction.

[TimB09]

^The community in that area put up a big fight against it and therefore it never really went any further than the idea stage.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Harrison

In other news...I wish Edmonton had a more direct/faster access downtown from the southside (I know this is beating a dead horse). I was in Calgary this weekend and jealous of how direct their access is to the CBD coming from the north side.

I wish we had a Memorial Drive-esque route that started from Gateway Boulevard / Whitemud Dr to Jasper Ave. I believe there were talks of something like this with a tunnel under Whyte a few years back, but never had traction.

Ditto. For business people coming into either Edmonton or Calgary from the airport for the first time, the juxtaposition is jarring.

[oiler-dude]

Originally Posted by s211

Ditto. For business people coming into either Edmonton or Calgary from the airport for the first time, the juxtaposition is jarring.

Yup. I don't think the hairpin is as big of a deal as some make it out to be, but man the stretch NB from the Whitemud to Whyte Ave is a blight. No sidewalks, old industrial buildings / lots, etc. It needs a refresh in the worst way.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Harrison

In other news...I wish Edmonton had a more direct/faster access downtown from the southside (I know this is beating a dead horse). I was in Calgary this weekend and jealous of how direct their access is to the CBD coming from the north side.

I wish we had a Memorial Drive-esque route that started from Gateway Boulevard / Whitemud Dr to Jasper Ave. I believe there were talks of something like this with a tunnel under Whyte a few years back, but never had traction.

Groat Road/River Valley Road... Pretty similar, though not from the area you want it in.

The community league in the area is where the discussion started and stopped with the tunnel idea.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by feepa

Groat Road/River Valley Road... Pretty similar, though not from the area you want it in.

The community league in the area is where the discussion started and stopped with the tunnel idea.

Coming from the north or west side isn't too bad with St. Albert Trail / Groat Road for southbound access and 100 Avenue / 102 Avenue & 107 Avenue for eastbound access. Even westbound from Strathcona County is better than Gateway with 98 Avenue.

As much as I love Mill Creek Ravine in it's undeveloped form, I wonder what would have happened if 91 Street was pushed through it as a freeway to Downtown as was originally envisioned (i.e. impact on first impressions of Edmonton, lack of Mill Creek multi-use path, environmental impacts, etc.).

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Coming from the north or west side isn't too bad with St. Albert Trail / Groat Road for southbound access and 100 Avenue / 102 Avenue & 107 Avenue for eastbound access. Even westbound from Strathcona County is better than Gateway with 98 Avenue.

As much as I love Mill Creek Ravine in it's undeveloped form, I wonder what would have happened if 91 Street was pushed through it as a freeway to Downtown as was originally envisioned (i.e. impact on first impressions of Edmonton, lack of Mill Creek multi-use path, environmental impacts, etc.).

Funny you should mention those things. As a north-sider I had to wonder the same thing. Calgary may look great for commutes from the north, is the south just as easy flowing? Perhaps they have a similar situation to Edmonton.

Likewise, I guiltily looked at the overhead map of the city and the best option for adding additional south routes is that ravine, however it would only serve the southeast quadrant. Perhaps that's enough to reduce the load, but the cost to quality of life and neighbourhood value for the areas surrounding the ravine would likely be too steep.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Landlocked

Funny you should mention those things. As a north-sider I had to wonder the same thing. Calgary may look great for commutes from the north, is the south just as easy flowing? Perhaps they have a similar situation to Edmonton.

Likewise, I guiltily looked at the overhead map of the city and the best option for adding additional south routes is that ravine, however it would only serve the southeast quadrant. Perhaps that's enough to reduce the load, but the cost to quality of life and neighbourhood value for the areas surrounding the ravine would likely be too steep.

That's the thing - the costs would very likely outweigh the benefits using the Mill Creek Ravine alignment. In a perfect world, the ravine could be avoided by having Gateway routed through the CPR Irvine yards (abandoned in this example) followed by a 1 km-long tunnel with a portal at Queen Elizabeth Park Road (eliminating the existing hairpin turn at Sask Drive).

I know this was likely the original tunnel idea thrown around years ago, but is still the best bet for a free-flowing northbound link to Downtown from the south. I can't imagine how expensive the tunnel would be though...

[technomad]

prior to the construction of the apartments behind the old CPR station, it could have been possible to do a simpler cut and cover tunnel, which would have been much cheaper than any alternative now..

it might actually be cheaper to just buy out the whole two block long monstrosity and take it out of the equation, replace it with something better fitting for the post-railyard future of the area

ideally I'd like to see the city start expropriating all lands between gateway and the rail tracks, from 23 av up to whyte.
along with completely grade separating the freight ROW, include space for a future HSR corridor, and a 6 lane freeway.
get the HSR and freeway underground south of 76 av to maximize redevelopment potential.
twin up the rossdale bridge and we've got proper access to the doorstep of the core

Other advantages:
- remove upwards of 100k daily vehicle trips from strathcona neighborhoods by siphoning traffic from 99st, 109 st and gateway/cal trail
(why were the community leagues against this?? )
- time savings for daily commuters
- vastly improved first impression of the city for new visitors from the airport
- free-flow route reduces vehicle emissions, wear and tear vs stop / start traffic
- opens potential to turn Calgary trail into a 2-way traffic high street, with plenty of redevelopment potential from leftover expropriated freeway lands

I think it would be an enormous win for the city on so many levels, and that's why I see it having a 0% chance of happening..

[s211]

Originally Posted by technomad

prior to the construction of the apartments behind the old CPR station, it could have been possible to do a simpler cut and cover tunnel, which would have been much cheaper than any alternative now..

it might actually be cheaper to just buy out the whole two block long monstrosity and take it out of the equation, replace it with something better fitting for the post-railyard future of the area

ideally I'd like to see the city start expropriating all lands between gateway and the rail tracks, from 23 av up to whyte.
along with completely grade separating the freight ROW, include space for a future HSR corridor, and a 6 lane freeway.
get the HSR and freeway underground south of 76 av to maximize redevelopment potential.
twin up the rossdale bridge and we've got proper access to the doorstep of the core

Other advantages:
- remove upwards of 100k daily vehicle trips from strathcona neighborhoods by siphoning traffic from 99st, 109 st and gateway/cal trail
(why were the community leagues against this?? )
- time savings for daily commuters
- vastly improved first impression of the city for new visitors from the airport
- free-flow route reduces vehicle emissions, wear and tear vs stop / start traffic
- opens potential to turn Calgary trail into a 2-way traffic high street, with plenty of redevelopment potential from leftover expropriated freeway lands

I think it would be an enormous win for the city on so many levels, and that's why I see it having a 0% chance of happening..

Stop making sense. (I 100% agree with you.)

[SHOFEAR]

My proposal would be to blow up houses on either side of 72nd ave and extend the relatively free flowing belgravia/fox drive/122 street all the way to 109th.

Then blow out property on one side of 109th all the way from the valley to 72nd ave. Add lanes and remove all intersections except for 76th and whyte.

It isn't impossible, but would face more hurdles now than it would have ten years ago before properties were rebuilt along that route. Why the city would attempt to urbanize a major transportation corridor that is basically the most logical route to downtown for the entire SW is dumbfounding.

[Harrison]

While we are at it:

The inner ring road (Yellowhead - 75 St/Wayne Gretzky Drive - Whitemud - 170 St.) should be made entirely free-flow now that the Yellowhead is being worked on. Main intersections that could be tackled next could include:

WGD - 118 Ave
75 St - 98 Ave
75 St - Argyll
170 St - 87 Ave
170 St - 100 Ave/SPR

A free-flow inner ring road would do wonders for crosstown vehicular circulation within the core/established neighbourhoods.

[feepa]

As for making the gateway blvd entrance to downtown better, I've long been in favour of tunneling to remove the hairpin.... However I dont see it ever happening. The city will never have a budget for what should be done in a proper fashion, and the local nimby community/business leagues seem to be against any sort of traffic improvement in the area, even if it means a REDUCTION in thru-traffic and congestion in their area...

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by feepa

As for making the gateway blvd entrance to downtown better, I've long been in favour of tunneling to remove the hairpin.... However I dont see it ever happening. The city will never have a budget for what should be done in a proper fashion, and the local nimby community/business leagues seem to be against any sort of traffic improvement in the area, even if it means a REDUCTION in thru-traffic and congestion in their area...

I wonder if a free-flow Gateway Blvd and tunnel connection to the Walterdale would be over or under the $1 billion tab for the YHT freeway conversion? I bet it would close to $1 billion if the new Gateway started at Whitemud, as that is nearly 4 km of new inner city freeway even before the tunnel is accounted for.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

I'm still miffed that a beautiful and iconic new Walterdale Bridge is only fed by a couple of crappy roads, especially that damn hairpin.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Hallsy's Toupee

I'm still miffed that a beautiful and iconic new Walterdale Bridge is only fed by a couple of crappy roads, especially that damn hairpin.

The hairpin needs to go. Where else do you see a turn like that at one of the main entrances to a major City's downtown?

[mintzilla]

Originally Posted by Harrison

The hairpin needs to go. Where else do you see a turn like that at one of the main entrances to a major City's downtown?

Driving into Budapest had quite the hairpin I remember, but they can probably get away with it.

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by mintzilla

Driving into Budapest had quite the hairpin I remember, but they can probably get away with it.

Thats what eating too much paprika does to you. And now they have a fascist in power.