AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[JAM]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Even transfers between two superior rail modes, such as LIRR to subway, end up turning off a high percentage of prospective riders - even in cities like New York, which is why they're spending so much money to extend the LIRR. Commuter rail won't EVER run often enough or quickly enough to feed enough people, with that transfer penalty, to a LRT line running on Lamar at Airport to justify taking a lane away on Lamar/Guadalupe.

This new line is going to stand on its own. Commuter rail's bringing in 2000 people, MAX, which would be a terminally low (disastrously low) ridership for a light rail line.

Which is the source of the problem: Is it hard to time the transfers from commuter rail to LRT, or will people simply not transfer even if their wait is only 1 or 2 minutes to catch the LRT after riding in on the commuter line?

[Mikey711MN]

Originally Posted by JAM

Which is the source of the problem: Is it hard to time the transfers from commuter rail to LRT, or will people simply not transfer even if their wait is only 1 or 2 minutes to catch the LRT after riding in on the commuter line?

From a technical perspective, the latter. From an operational perspective, the former.

[Mikey711MN]

A brief grand opening ceremony was held to open Segment 4 to traffic, from SH 71 on the north end to US 183 on the south end. Construction work will continue at the south end to wrap up the phased construction of the US 183/SH 130/45SE intersection, most notably the realignment of the US 183 FRs and the SH 45SE mainlane bridges over US 183.

[M1EK]

JAM, people (correctly) get the feeling that a commute with 2 transit legs (plus a drive and/or walk on the first end and a walk on the last part) is much less reliable and much less comfortable than a commute with fewer legs.

[JAM]

Originally Posted by M1EK

JAM, people (correctly) get the feeling that a commute with 2 transit legs (plus a drive and/or walk on the first end and a walk on the last part) is much less reliable and much less comfortable than a commute with fewer legs.

If trains are timed properly, I would be one of the riders. I'd MUCH rather commute to work in a train than sit in traffic. Maybe not every day, but most days. If the train took twice as long as the car, then I would have to rethink it. But if the amount of time was equal or less, then its a no brainer. It always amazes me how lazy people can be.

[JAM]

Originally Posted by Mikey711MN

From a technical perspective, the latter. From an operational perspective, the former.

Seems like the technical issue is not difficult to overcome, is there more to it than meets the eye?

[Mikey711MN]

Originally Posted by JAM

Seems like the technical issue is not difficult to overcome, is there more to it than meets the eye?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. The very fact that an engineer must take into account a "bias" or "penalty" of sorts is in and of itself an inhibitor to the model.

It's the notion that people would not opt for transferring vis-a-vis a continuous path to their destination that serves as input, ergo the model will suggest a reduced usage of that mode as an output.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by JAM

If trains are timed properly, I would be one of the riders. I'd MUCH rather commute to work in a train than sit in traffic. Maybe not every day, but most days. If the train took twice as long as the car, then I would have to rethink it. But if the amount of time was equal or less, then its a no brainer. It always amazes me how lazy people can be.

That's a huge IF. Even New York doesn't get it right (subways aren't on schedule but at least they run often). LRT running in the street is far more reliable than the bus can ever be and than streetcar in shared lane can ever be, but it still has more unreliability built in than a completely grade separated mechanism like commuter rail, which itself has a non-zero reliability (might stop longer at this station today than it did yesterday, for instance).

You have to remember that when people talk about this stuff it's in the aggregate. Like the 1/4 mile rule. It doesn't matter if every single reader in this forum would march uphill through the snow both ways 5 miles to the train station - most people won't. Likewise, there is a very large transfer penalty at play even with rail-rail transfers, even in mature rail cities. Your anectdotes are rather irrelevant.

[Lextx97]

Reading the foregoing posts it appears as though some are strongly arguing that there will be diminished ridership because . . . well . . . the routes and design are not perfect and the stops won't drop you off at the front steps of your office. I work in the uptown area, practice before some state agencies, and talk to a lot of state employees that commute to the Capitol Complex from places like Leander, Cedar Park, Liberty Hill, and Georgetown. What I'm hearing now is that people are sick of filling up their gas tanks to the tune of $80-$100 a week. They're used to the long commutes, and it appears now (from what I hear) that the issue is money and not necessarily shortening their commute times. My secretary commutes from Liberty Hill and has had it. I've discussed the drawbacks of having to drop off the train at MLK and take a bus to 15th and Congress, and the response was that they would put up with the train-bus-walk if it means saving several hundred dollars a month.

I'm no expert on transportation design and policy and I can't spit out statistics and scientific polls. I'm just reporting what I'm hearing from those workers who are beginning to be placed in a position of not having the luxury to be choosy and turn their noses up because they have to take a bus and walk a bit. The ever rising gas prices and rising taxes have begun cutting into the the movie and weekend dinner luxuries for these folks. If and when it cut starts reaching weekly groceries and such, gulp and god forbid they may just have to take the imperfect train.

[extreme sarcasm on]Then again, maybe some developers will build 2000 sq ft downtown high rises at $150,000 and this will take care of the problem. [extreme sarcasm turned off]

[alexjon]

How well do couplets work on rail systems? I know in cities with narrower blocks like Portland, they're no big deal since the blocks aren't that big-- but what about bigger cities?

Is Austin going to use couplets?

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Lextx97

Reading the foregoing posts it appears as though some are strongly arguing that there will be diminished ridership because . . . well . . . the routes and design are not perfect and the stops won't drop you off at the front steps of your office. I work in the uptown area, practice before some state agencies, and talk to a lot of state employees that commute to the Capitol Complex from places like Leander, Cedar Park, Liberty Hill, and Georgetown. What I'm hearing now is that people are sick of filling up their gas tanks to the tune of $80-$100 a week. They're used to the long commutes, and it appears now (from what I hear) that the issue is money and not necessarily shortening their commute times. My secretary commutes from Liberty Hill and has had it. I've discussed the drawbacks of having to drop off the train at MLK and take a bus to 15th and Congress, and the response was that they would put up with the train-bus-walk if it means saving several hundred dollars a month.

OK, so why aren't these people taking the 98x series express buses right now, which cost a dollar, are plush and comfortable, also have Wifi, and WOULD take them straight to their office in a similar time (or quicker) than the train+bus commute will?

Get it?

[JAM]

Originally Posted by M1EK

OK, so why aren't these people taking the 98x series express buses right now, which cost a dollar, are plush and comfortable, also have Wifi, and WOULD take them straight to their office in a similar time (or quicker) than the train+bus commute will?

Get it?

I can answer this, because they sit on Mopac with all other traffic. In Houston, where there are dedicated HOV lanes, they do take the express bus. Which depart every 5-10 minutes during rush hour. However, if they get rid of their gargantuous SUV's, they could cut their fuel bill in half or even 2/3, which could put them back in their car.

[Lextx97]

Originally Posted by JAM

I can answer this, because they sit on Mopac with all other traffic. In Houston, where there are dedicated HOV lanes, they do take the express bus. Which depart every 5-10 minutes during rush hour. However, if they get rid of their gargantuous SUV's, they could cut their fuel bill in half or even 2/3, which could put them back in their car.

Ding, ding, ding. This get's it. The "express" bus? *snicker* By the way, my secretary drives a subcompact.

[NormalgeNyus]

people are not as lazy as some of you make them out to be. this is one of those hippie towns where people care about the environment and don't mind getting alittle exercise. so i think people will take the rail and would not mind waiting a minute or two and would not care to walk a few blocks. it happens everyday in other cities it can happen here

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by NormalgeNyus

people are not as lazy as some of you make them out to be. this is one of those hippie towns where people care about the environment and don't mind getting alittle exercise. so i think people will take the rail and would not mind waiting a minute or two and would not care to walk a few blocks. it happens everyday in other cities it can happen here

Portland is a "hippie" town, too-- and a great deal of people transfer in and out on the bus.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by NormalgeNyus

people are not as lazy as some of you make them out to be. this is one of those hippie towns where people care about the environment and don't mind getting alittle exercise. so i think people will take the rail and would not mind waiting a minute or two and would not care to walk a few blocks. it happens everyday in other cities it can happen here

We've been cutting down our car trips. In fact, I've been making the 2 1/2 mile round trip on my bicycle to the grocery store every few days for groceries rather than us driving to the other store which is 6 miles round trip. I've been riding my bike to just about any place that is around my neighborhood up to about 4 miles. It's honestly not that bad.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Lextx97

Ding, ding, ding. This get's it. The "express" bus? *snicker* By the way, my secretary drives a subcompact.

Here's a hint, folks: the express bus is still quicker than this train + shuttle bus will be - because the train goes so far out of the way and the bus is stuck in traffic coming back in.

So you might be able to get them to try the train+shuttle-bus once or twice at the new commute, but if they didn't like the express bus being 'stuck in traffic', how do you suppose they're going to like the shuttle bus doing the same exact thing, except less comfortably, with a long loading process, too? (one train = several shuttle buses - remember the last time you loaded/unloaded a completely full bus?)

So the right answer was: if they're not willing to ride the express bus today, they're probably not going to stick with the train/bus combo. Which is precisely why Capital Metro only planned for a MAXIMUM CAPACITY of 2000 people per day rather than the 46,000 per day 2000's LRT projected as actual use by now.

[JAM]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Here's a hint, folks: the express bus is still quicker than this train + shuttle bus will be - because the train goes so far out of the way and the bus is stuck in traffic coming back in.

I would agree with this if the bus is stuck in Mopac traffic, but anyway, that is not what we were referring to....... We're talking about LxTex97's co-workers who live in Leander w/ assumption LRT is built. This is the person who does not currently take the express bus. This person will drive to Leander station, take commuter train in, transfer to LRT and be dropped off right in front of office on Congress. No busses involved that I know of. No traffic except crossing the street on foot at Congress, and her 5 minute drive to the Leander train station. This is an entirely different set of commuters. Her other choice is express bus (stuck in traffic on Mopac) or car (same thing).

In any regard, where are these bus transfers you refer to assuming the LRT is built?

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by JAM

I would agree with this if the bus is stuck in Mopac traffic, but anyway, that is not what we were referring to....... We're talking about LxTex97's co-workers who live in Leander w/ assumption LRT is built. This is the person who does not currently take the express bus. This person will drive to Leander station, take commuter train in, transfer to LRT and be dropped off right in front of office on Congress. No busses involved that I know of. No traffic except crossing the street on foot at Congress, and her 5 minute drive to the Leander train station. This is an entirely different set of commuters. Her other choice is express bus (stuck in traffic on Mopac) or car (same thing).

In any regard, where are these bus transfers you refer to assuming the LRT is built?

Uh, the poster of this original contention was assuming the shuttle-bus transfer. If the ultra-light rail plan passes, it'll be at least 5 or 6 years before service begins anyways.

And the shuttle-bus routes are now on the books at Capital Metro, by the way: http://www.capmetro.org/news/news_detail.asp?id=4532 (scroll down to the 46x routes; there's a TON of other bus changes proposed this time around). Take a look, and by the way, take a special look at routes 461/462, which should emphasize what I've been telling you all along - that Capital Metro doesn't expect a non-trivial number of people to walk from the Convention Center stop to their offices.

Anyways, back to the point: if the secretary won't ride the plush express bus today which will take him/her straight to their office with no transfer, they might TRY the train/shuttlebus combo when it starts, but I wouldn't expect them to be happy with it - the shuttle isn't going to be a nice plush touring bus, and the trip's going to be even more stop/go herky/jerky than a typical city bus.

[JAM]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Uh, the poster of this original contention was assuming the shuttle-bus transfer. If the ultra-light rail plan passes, it'll be at least 5 or 6 years before service begins anyways.

Anyways, back to the point: if the secretary won't ride the plush express bus today which will take him/her straight to their office with no transfer, they might TRY the train/shuttlebus combo when it starts, but I wouldn't expect them to be happy with it - the shuttle isn't going to be a nice plush touring bus, and the trip's going to be even more stop/go herky/jerky than a typical city bus.

Ooops, your right. I see your point then. You have to admit, there is something magical about taking a train vs a bus.

Plus, the train will still eliminate, most of the waiting in traffic. Going from Congress to 4th and Red River on a shuttle bus is not exactly the same as stewing in traffic on Mopac and the 183 interchange. And if you are reverse commutting it is even worse. Reverse commuters are screaming for a way to get off Mopac.