What is it like to come home to Canada?

[Nite]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The commitment to fund Phase 2 of the Ottawa LRT was made by the Harper government in 2015.

Yes and anyone in Ontario just has to remember what the Mike Harris government can do with transit project commitment and actual construction from a previous government.
The actually money was not approved by the Trudeau government until 2017 with an expanded project.

Again here is the money the Trudeau government has spent on transit funding in Canada to enable the greatest transit expansion in Canadian history:

Ontario Line (4.0 billion from the Trudeau government)
Eglinton Crosstown West Extension (1.9 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Yonge North Subway Extension (2.2 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Scarborough Subway Extension (2.3 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Vancouver Langley Skytrain Extension (1.3 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Vancouver Broadway Subway Extension (0.9 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Montreal REM (Réseau express métropolitain) (1.3 billion from the Trudeau government)
Montreal Blue Line expansion (1.3 billion from the Trudeau government)
Calgary Green Line LRT (1.5 billion from the Trudeau government)
Edmonton Valley Line West LRT (1.0 billion from the Trudeau government)
Quebec City Tramway (1.2 billion from the Trudeau government)
Winnipeg Transit Projects (0.5 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Ottawa Light Rail Transit Stage 2 (1.1 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Hamilton LRT (1.7 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Mississauga Transit (0.7 Billion from the Trudeau government)

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Let's be clear here, going to university or college does not equate to being educated. According to what is called the Reverse Flynn Effect, average IQs have been steadily declining starting from the mid 70s birth cohorts after rising steadily for about half a century. It is estimated that average IQs are declining by a rate of 7 points per generation from the Gen X (mid 60s to early 80s) peak.

IQ scores are irrelevant when we're talking about education - which does not refute the fact that younger generations in Canada (and globally) have the highest rates of secondary, post-secondary, and graduate educational attainment in history. They also have the highest employment rate, and are the most likely to hold multiple jobs. We were talking about their supposed "laziness" here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

A Phillips is for strippers while a Robertson is for johns.

The other way around, ISTM!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

Yes and anyone in Ontario just has to remember what the Mike Harris government can do with transit project commitment and actual construction from a previous government.

It's been two decades since Mike Harris has been in power. So no idea what you're on about. Ontario's Tories today are quite supportive of transit construction. It's one of the few things they actually fund well.

Originally Posted by Nite

The actually money was not approved by the Trudeau government until 2017 with an expanded project.

Again here is the money the Trudeau government has spent on transit funding in Canada to enable the greatest transit expansion in Canadian history:

Ontario Line (4.0 billion from the Trudeau government)
Eglinton Crosstown West Extension (1.9 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Yonge North Subway Extension (2.2 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Scarborough Subway Extension (2.3 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Vancouver Langley Skytrain Extension (1.3 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Vancouver Broadway Subway Extension (0.9 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Montreal REM (Réseau express métropolitain) (1.3 billion from the Trudeau government)
Montreal Blue Line expansion (1.3 billion from the Trudeau government)
Calgary Green Line LRT (1.5 billion from the Trudeau government)
Edmonton Valley Line West LRT (1.0 billion from the Trudeau government)
Quebec City Tramway (1.2 billion from the Trudeau government)
Winnipeg Transit Projects (0.5 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Kitchener-Waterloo ION Rapid Transit (1.1 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Hamilton LRT (1.7 Billion from the Trudeau government)
Mississauga Transit (0.7 Billion from the Trudeau government)

Not sure what the point of spamming this list of funding announcements is. Like I said earlier, the Harper government was funding transit. You'd have to prove that if the CPC continued in office they wouldn't fund these projects. That's going to be a tall order for you.

Also, listing ~$25B worth of transit projects over 8.5 years in office isn't as impressive as you think. That's less than $3B per year on average out of a $400B+ budget. So less than 1%. And most of those commitments haven't even fully paid out because the projects haven't finished. And most of the funding is provincial and municipal.

Lastly, you can talk about how it's the largest transit expansion in history. But when it comes with record population growth that's a lot less impressive. It's basically trying to maintain status quo on infrastructure. Not nearly closing the gap enough.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

This project was announced 2 years ago and is still in the early stages.

You expected 10's of billion of dollars in constructions to be spent and the project to be up and running in 2 years after the announcement ???

The original idea was proposed two CEOs ago during the last year of the Harper Government. The Trudeau government didn't even fund definition work for the first 4 years of their government. Then it took them another 3 years to get definition work done to even start tendering. You can check the history in the VIA Rail thread and forums. Can't believe you're trying to gaslight about this project on a forum with a ton of railfans who follow this project extremely closely.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The original idea was proposed two CEOs ago during the last year of the Harper Government. The Trudeau government didn't even fund definition work for the first 4 years of their government. Then it took them another 3 years to get definition work done to even start tendering. You can check the history in the VIA Rail thread and forums. Can't believe you're trying to gaslight about this project on a forum with a ton of railfans who follow this project extremely closely.

the CEO of VIA is not the government though and it was only a proposal until the Trudeau government decided to start funding.
Like I said before plans don't mean anything until a government comes along that decides to fund it.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's been two decades since Mike Harris has been in power. So no idea what you're on about. Ontario's Tories today are quite supportive of transit construction. It's one of the few things they actually fund well.



Not sure what the point of spamming this list of funding announcements is. Like I said earlier, the Harper government was funding transit. You'd have to prove that if the CPC continued in office they wouldn't fund these projects. That's going to be a tall order for you.

Also, listing ~$25B worth of transit projects over 8.5 years in office isn't as impressive as you think. That's less than $3B per year on average out of a $400B+ budget. So less than 1%. And most of those commitments haven't even fully paid out because the projects haven't finished. And most of the funding is provincial and municipal.

Lastly, you can talk about how it's the largest transit expansion in history. But when it comes with record population growth that's a lot less impressive. It's basically trying to maintain status quo on infrastructure. Not nearly closing the gap enough.

So if the Trudeau government funding to transit is insignificant, why only now under his government are so many transit projects all getting built at the same time??
why didn't we see the same level of transit construction for the 20 years before the Trudeau government?

The Trudeau government is even planning on spending more with 3 billion in dedicated funding every year for transit in the future as well.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

So if the Trudeau government funding to transit is insignificant, why only now under his government are so many transit projects all getting built at the same time??
why didn't we see the same level of transit construction for the 20 years before the Trudeau government?

Mostly because provincial and municipal governments were unwilling to invest in that era. That was the era of silliness like the LRT vs subway decade in Toronto. There was no talk of talk transit development in the GTA until Metrolinx was created and the regional transport plan/vision was published in 2008. It was only after that, we saw real movement on projects. Not just the GTA. Ottawa was having its silly debate at the same time of tunnel vs surface running LRT. If you actually venture beyond the Canada portion of this forum and actually cared about transit, you'd be well aware of these debates. I spent part of my university years in Toronto watching the Scarborough RT debate and then attended public consultations in Ottawa where they were debating the need for a tunnel. Federal funding was never a topic of discussion.

Originally Posted by Nite

The Trudeau government is even planning on spending more with 3 billion in dedicated funding every year for transit in the future as well.

$3B per year may sound like a lot to you. But it's not nearly adequate enough if the population is growing at a million per year. And this is the problem several of us keep mentioning that you keep ignoring.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

the CEO of VIA is not the government though and it was only a proposal until the Trudeau government decided to start funding.
Like I said before plans don't mean anything until a government comes along that decides to fund it.

And like I said before, they chose to sit on the plan for 4 years and not even fund a single definition study. This was in an era when they ran $100B in cumulative deficits. And then spent the next 3 years funding some $300M in engineering and definition work. So they took nearly 8 years to do $300M worth of work just to get to the point where they can ask industry to express interest. Now they are saying they may have a contract, not for construction, but for co-development, in 2025, to start construction in maybe 2027-2028, to launch service in the mid to late 2030s.

So an idea originally conceived in the early 2010s, can't even be tendered for a decade and won't enter service for 20 years? In the context of this thread, do you understand why somebody choosing between Canada and another country might view that as incompetence?

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

As for the post above which mentioned retiring to Spain, consider Portugal as well. They offer easy immigration for retirees. The climate on the Algarve is comparable to the Costa del Sol and it is slightly more inexpensive in general. The language is more difficult but many Portuguese also speak English, esp. on the Algarve and also in Lisboa.

Yup, that's the other place we've considered (Algarve) but it's been increasing in price as of the past two years, at least as compared to Costa del Sol.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find a lot of the current gripes about Toronto are related to the uncomfortable and relatively sudden transition (collapse?) from Toronto The Good and New York Run by the Swiss to, well, something else.

This article summarizes the mood well:

Toronto falls into the pit of urban decline that's plagued U.S. cities
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/tor...ued-u-s-cities

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Let's be clear here, going to university or college does not equate to being educated. According to what is called the Reverse Flynn Effect, average IQs have been steadily declining starting from the mid 70s birth cohorts after rising steadily for about half a century. It is estimated that average IQs are declining by a rate of 7 points per generation from the Gen X (mid 60s to early 80s) peak.

This appears obvious to me. The younger generations have poorer vocabulary and writing (grammatical) skills and poorer ability to solve relatively easy mathematical problems. For at least 20 years there has been grade inflation at all school levels including post-secondary. A 2012 study in Canada showed for graduating students from universities in that year, one in six Canadian born grads have low literacy skills, the figure is nearly half for those who are foreign born.

7 points per generation is way off. It is a point or two at most. Still significant at the population level but not catastrophic as we're back to the greatest generation levels who were well great.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

7 points per generation is way off. It is a point or two at most. Still significant at the population level but not catastrophic as we're back to the greatest generation levels who were well great.

IQ is an imperfect measurement of intelligence. In general, it tests reading ability, general knowledge (especially as pertains to an upper class white Anglo Saxon New England prep school sort of basis), deductive reasoning and mathematical skills.

There are many people out there who are very intelligent, but who have poor English language skills, have a different cultural upbringing, or who are neurodivergent, who will do poorly on an IQ test.

An IQ test however is not absolutely useless. If used on an appropriate cohort, it does give a reasonable approximation for intelligence. Different measures may be necessary for different populations.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Mostly because provincial and municipal governments were unwilling to invest in that era. That was the era of silliness like the LRT vs subway decade in Toronto. There was no talk of talk transit development in the GTA until Metrolinx was created and the regional transport plan/vision was published in 2008. It was only after that, we saw real movement on projects. Not just the GTA. Ottawa was having its silly debate at the same time of tunnel vs surface running LRT. If you actually venture beyond the Canada portion of this forum and actually cared about transit, you'd be well aware of these debates. I spent part of my university years in Toronto watching the Scarborough RT debate and then attended public consultations in Ottawa where they were debating the need for a tunnel. Federal funding was never a topic of discussion.



$3B per year may sound like a lot to you. But it's not nearly adequate enough if the population is growing at a million per year. And this is the problem several of us keep mentioning that you keep ignoring.

And where would all of metrolinx's plans be without 20 billion in Trudeau government money???
why do you think all these municipalities and provinces all of a sudden decided to build projects at the same time when they weren't building much for the 2 decades before?? You think that that the federal government saying we want to build more transit projects to fight climate change had something to do with it.

You also claim that 3 Billion a year in dedicated funding is not much but that is the equivalent of 1.5x Canada line of funding every year.
We could finance 10 automated elevated metro line in each of Canada's 10 largest cities in a 10 year window with the specs of the Canada line.

Face it we are in the golden era of transit projects financing in this country thanks to the Trudeau government.
This era will end once this government is out of office.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

7 points per generation is way off. It is a point or two at most. Still significant at the population level but not catastrophic as we're back to the greatest generation levels who were well great.

I really want to know what the hell he's been reading to come up with such a garbage talking point.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

And where would all of metrolinx's plans be without 20 billion in Trudeau government money???

You mean $20B of federal money. Do you have any proof at all that a hypothetical 2015-2024 CPC government wouldn't have committed the same?

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You mean $20B of federal money. Do you have any proof at all that a hypothetical 2015-2024 CPC government wouldn't have committed the same?

No other Canadian government in history has spent as much as the Trudeau government on transit is the basis of my argument. The Harper government certainly didn't spend anywhere close to the Trudeau government has. There would have been tax cuts and austerity to pay for these tax cuts under a conservative government. which is what the current Conservative Party of Canada is saying they will do.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nite

No other Canadian government in history has spent as much as the Trudeau government on transit is the basis of my argument. The Harper government certainly didn't spend anywhere close to the Trudeau government has. There would have been tax cuts and austerity to pay for these tax cuts under a conservative government. which is what the current Conservative Party of Canada is saying they will do.

The Harper Government spent more on transit than the Chretien/Martin Liberals did. They also chose to subsidize transit in other ways (transit pass tax credit letting transit agencies raise fares and increase pass subscription). You can keep arguing. But there's no evidence they would have found funding $1-2B in construction per year (what current Liberal commitments actually work out to) that onerous. Especially, if they had more budgetary room and lower social spending.

And yes, $3B isn't enough. Let's just look at a major goal for this government, the electrification of bus fleets. For reference, $3B is enough for 2500 electric buses. And I'm not including the cost of bus garages that have to be refitted for the changeover. Canada has 20 000 transit buses in service. So current funding rates is enough to change and recapitalize the entire bus fleet to electric over 8 years while not building anything else at all. But 20 000 buses was we've fleet when the population was 36-37M. Every million we grow requires another 300-500 buses. So basically with 10 years of $3B and current population growth rates, the government will have a fully electric bus fleet that is already a third of the way to end of life, with no money for any other transit infrastructure. 1M population growth rate blowing through transit recapitalization just like that.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Nite

why do you think all these municipalities and provinces all of a sudden decided to build projects at the same time when they weren't building much for the 2 decades before??

This only applies to Ontario, and it's because of provincial governments.

If I can summarize the Trudeau government's approach to infrastructure investment:

1) Carried on with Harper's status quo of being a third funding partner as long as municipalities and provinces did the work and ponied up their share of the money;
2) Massively ramped up immigration, straining demand on infrastructure, but did not provide any extra money or resources to help infrastructure supply keep up with the demand they imposed;
3) Created the boondoggle Canada infrastructure bank which has been an epic fail in terms of outcomes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

This only applies to Ontario, and it's because of provincial governments.

If I can summarize the Trudeau government's approach to infrastructure investment:

1) Carried on with Harper's status quo of being a third funding partner as long as municipalities and provinces did the work and ponied up their share of the money;

Yep. $20B sounds impressive. Until you realize these are commitments spread out over 15 years of construction. Not that impressive then. And certainly not something that the Harper government couldn't have matched. And it really wouldn't have made much of a difference really, if Harper spent say $1B/year on GTA transit instead of $1.3B like the LPC. The province would have made up a bit of the difference and maybe extended plans a year or two.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

2) Massively ramped up immigration, straining demand on infrastructure, but did not provide any extra money or resources to help infrastructure supply keep up with the demand they imposed;

This is key. All the current plans are infrastructure we should have today for a population of 40M. But, by the time they are constructed, with the current growth rate being pushed, Canada will be at 45-50M. You won't notice much of a difference in crowding on the subway and buses or traffic on the road, despite the current rate of investment, if immigration stays this high.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

3) Created the boondoggle Canada infrastructure bank which has been an epic fail in terms of outcomes.

The CIB is actually a great idea. But, like so many other things, implementation has been poor. They've been so handcuffed, they haven't attracted the private and institutional capital they pledged to attract. They were supposed to get large projects like HFR done. And somehow, the best the Liberals can do is pledge getting a shovel into the ground 12 years after they were elected. I'm not sure that's the CIB's fault as much as the government itself.