[Moncton] Centre Avenir Centre | 26.65m |~6 Fl | Completed

[pierremoncton]

Tell us what you really think.

You can't disagree that Alward was trying to buy Moncton's votes. I'd like to see the events centre come to fruition, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it's good economic sense; it's a toy.

[MonctonRad]

A toy perhaps, but it would be a functional toy with a well defined purpose.

A new events centre would be the linchpin for the sports and entertainment tourism industry in greater Moncton. If it isn't built, then the concerts and sporting events that this facility would attract (which are already beginning to go elsewhere) will dry up completely and this would have serious ramifications for hotels, restaurants and all tourism related industries in the metro area. This could negatively impact on literally hundreds of tourism related jobs, but then again I guess Brian isn't interested in job creation (or preservation).......

If the events centre isn't built, then the Aquillini block won't get redeveloped and all the other properties along the west end of Main Street just waiting the green light to go ahead will also remain moribund. We can all kiss goodbye to another couple of hundred million dollars in private investment, but again Brian doesn't seem to worry about this. After all, he's got his own magical billion dollars (of borrowed) money to spread around on paving projects all over the province.

If the events centre isn't built, then we had all better get used to looking at a huge gaping hole on the west end of Main Street where Highfield Square used to sit. If the events centre doesn't get provincial funding, then this hole in the ground will be around for a long time - a very long time indeed.....

So, Brian, the ball is in your court. Only an idiot would fail to see that at this point in the process that we have little choice but to charge ahead and get this thing done. But in the end all we can do is hope and pray to God that Brian is in fact not an idiot - but then again all I have to do is look at Brian's smug face and all I see is Shawn Graham all over again....

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If the events centre isn't built, then the Aquillini block won't get redeveloped and all the other properties along the west end of Main Street just waiting the green light to go ahead will also remain moribund. We can all kiss goodbye to another couple of hundred million dollars in private investment...(

Couldn't this investment happen, with or without the events centre though? If enough developers/businesses have expressed their intents to invest substantially in the area, this could create a critical mass that would attract more people to the area and make it a more viable shopping/entertainment district. Restaurants and bars and nightclubs and clothing and electronics stores don't necessarily need a new arena across the street to be viable...

What I mean is it would be one thing if the events centre were the only proposed development in the area, but if there's hundreds of millions of dollars in private investment in the works, that in itself is enough of a reason for developers to take interest in the area, I would think.

[JHikka]

If anyone doubts the ability of a new arena/events centre to create development in a downtown area they're more than welcome to swing on over to the Edmonton sub-forum here. They're witnessing tremendous development (and private investment!) in the adjoining blocks to where they're building their new arena.

Originally Posted by Hali87

What I mean is it would be one thing if the events centre were the only proposed development in the area, but if there's hundreds of millions of dollars in private investment in the works, that in itself is enough of a reason for developers to take interest in the area, I would think.

And, perhaps, in the end we may never know if the PCs knew this and the Liberals don't. The PCs were absolutely attempting to buy votes in the Moncton area, but I also like to believe that they were well aware of the private investment hinging on a new building going up at Highfield. Arenas are things where, if built properly in the right area, it's a "build it and they will come" sort of scenario.

If the Liberals wish to devote funding to Route 11 and not to a new arena in Moncton then we'll get to know very quickly what the mindset is of the new government and their views towards urbanization and economic development as a whole.

[MonctonRad]

Another good example is the Budweiser Gardens in London Ontario (also home to a CHL and an NBL team). It draws many major concerts and events and was used as a model in the initial stages of the Moncton events centre project. Budweiser Gardens has done wonders for the redevelopment and the re-energizing of downtown London. If only we could be as successful.

But then again Brian does know best. A billion dollars of fresh MacAdam on the roads of northern NB is certainly much much more important than fuelling the growth of the downtown of one of the few economic engines in this province......

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Couldn't this investment happen, with or without the events centre though? If enough developers/businesses have expressed their intents to invest substantially in the area, this could create a critical mass that would attract more people to the area and make it a more viable shopping/entertainment district. Restaurants and bars and nightclubs and clothing and electronics stores don't necessarily need a new arena across the street to be viable...

What I mean is it would be one thing if the events centre were the only proposed development in the area, but if there's hundreds of millions of dollars in private investment in the works, that in itself is enough of a reason for developers to take interest in the area, I would think.

I couldn't agree more. If the Moncton economy is healthy and developers view it as a strong investment than those projects will move forward regardless. I don't see it as the responsibility of either the federal or provincial government to build a hockey rink to spur municipal growth.

It is not doom and gloom for Moncton if this project does not move forward. I also think the idea that "we have come this far so it must move forward" is a bit short sighted. Moncton is a fast growing city with a promising future, but over spending could turn out to be a much bigger long term problem than the lack of a new hockey rink.

The CBC article this morning has several dozens comments against this project stating that the city has recently laid off employees due to financial problems, is this accurate?

It might also be a good idea to keep personal attacks and political views private on these sorts of forums. Should we keep it to development news/discussions ? I am sure there are many forums where folks can rant about politicians.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

The CBC article this morning has several dozens comments against this project stating that the city has recently laid off employees due to financial problems, is this accurate?

No, it is not. The city is choosing to not replace 19 retiring positions. You might understandably argue "tomayto-tomahto", though.

[L'homard]

It is not "the responsibility" of the feds and province to "build a hockey rink."
The figures show that this project (it's a hell of a lot more than "a hockey rink") is just a good idea, a good investment, a good return on taxpayers' dollars. This will generate dozens of millions of tax dollars every single year for both the prov. and Ottawa. We need to look at the bigger picture here.
Do we need better roads? Health care? Schools? Sure we do. We can put federal and provincial investment in those and be done with it, or we can invest in projects like this one and generate a healthy return on that investment every year for the next half century or more. Government investment in this project will pay for itself in less than a decade. After that it's all gravy.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

No, it is not. The city is choosing to not replace 19 retiring positions. You might understandably argue "tomayto-tomahto", though.

I personally view this is potentially a very different scenario. The jobs could not have been replaced for a myriad of non-financial reasons but without knowing the details none of can accurately say, including the commenters on CBC who like to position it as works best for them.

Thanks for the info.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by L'homard

It is not "the responsibility" of the feds and province to "build a hockey rink."
The figures show that this project (it's a hell of a lot more than "a hockey rink") is just a good idea, a good investment, a good return on taxpayers' dollars. This will generate dozens of millions of tax dollars every single year for both the prov. and Ottawa. We need to look at the bigger picture here.
Do we need better roads? Health care? Schools? Sure we do. We can put federal and provincial investment in those and be done with it, or we can invest in projects like this one and generate a healthy return on that investment every year for the next half century or more. Government investment in this project will pay for itself in less than a decade. After that it's all gravy.

I think you may be confusing economic spinoffs with actually profits. If this project was in a position to pay itself off over a ten year span you would have a very long list of private developers from across NA looking to privately build, fund, and then reap the rewards instead of looking for public funding.

The reality is that these projects do lose money which is why it falls to the government to fund them.

There is value to the city but that needs to be weighed against what the money might otherwise do for the city, province and country. How many public parks, school upgrades, etc. could be achieved that might be better suited to drawing folks back to our region?

Generally speaking folks move for jobs. Could this money be used to create jobs and enhance the economy far more efficiently?

Don't get me wrong, I am not claiming to have those answers but things that need to be considered before spending such a significant amount of money when the provincial and municipal finances are already on shaky ground.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Couldn't this investment happen, with or without the events centre though? If enough developers/businesses have expressed their intents to invest substantially in the area, this could create a critical mass that would attract more people to the area and make it a more viable shopping/entertainment district. Restaurants and bars and nightclubs and clothing and electronics stores don't necessarily need a new arena across the street to be viable...

What I mean is it would be one thing if the events centre were the only proposed development in the area, but if there's hundreds of millions of dollars in private investment in the works, that in itself is enough of a reason for developers to take interest in the area, I would think.

I think the absence of the events centre would make the likelihood of significant surrounding development very unlikely.

Moncton's economy has done well in the last couple of decades, but the downtown remains weak. We don't have the luxury of Halifax's position as the de facto regional metropolis. As such, most development monies bypass Moncton (and Saint John) and head right to Halifax. Even downtown Halifax has not done that well (until recently), and this is one of the reasons why the Nova Centre is being developed (with significant government involvement). The Nova Centre is rightly seen as a major linchpin in the growth of the core of that city.

The events centre in Moncton is our equivalent of the Nova Centre. It will stimulate surrounding condo, apartment, hotel, retail and restaurant construction that will total a couple of hundred million dollars. The amount of potential private capital that could be injected into the city economy because of the events centre will easily outstrip the combined federal, provincial and municipal contributions.

Is there a risk in government funding of the events centre? Of course there is, because the private companies that have interests in the surrounding lands (like the Aquilini's) will not guarantee their intentions for their properties. It is like JHikka says a case of "if you build it they will come". You have to have some faith.

If we fail to build the events centre however, this will send the developers a completely different message. That message will be that Moncton has lost it's mojo and is no longer willing to take the big risks. The accountants will have won out and the visionaries will have lost.

If the provincial Liberals deny funding for the events centre, we will have seen the end of the "Moncton Miracle". They will be writing the epitaph of that brief period of time (1990-2014) when the city rose from the ashes of the closure of the CN Shops, the Eaton's Catalogue Warehouse and CFB Moncton and became a centre of regional importance and one of the faster growing cities in Canada.

The Miracle faltered with the death of Ian Fowler. The flame will be completely extinguished by Brian Gallant.

RIP Moncton Miracle.......

[L'homard]

I worded my response clumsily, nalbert.
MonctonRad made my point better than I did.
Events Centres, generally, don't make profits. They spawn other development which pay huge taxes year after year after year.

[Taeolas]

Well put, but I wouldn't quite eulogize it just yet. Despite the comments sections on CBC (never read the comments), I do believe the Centre still has a lot of public support, especially once the city can present an actual design for how it will look. Being the ones to nix it could be politically costly, especially if Moncton goes into a major downturn. (In 4-5 years, if the Centre isn't built and Moncton falters, you can be sure the local Tories will be trumpeting that "What if?")

If Highfield Square wasn't torn down, then maybe the Downtown Centre train could be stopped; but now, with such a big downtown space cleared out, it would be suicidal to stop (especially with how red the city is, including his own riding).

Gallant could still nix it out of spite, but until he does, it's still possible to happen.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

The CBC article this morning has several dozens comments against this project stating that the city has recently laid off employees due to financial problems, is this accurate?

CBC comments are uploaded by the craziest of the crazies. You'd be better off ignoring them completely.

Originally Posted by nwalbert

It might also be a good idea to keep personal attacks and political views private on these sorts of forums. Should we keep it to development news/discussions ? I am sure there are many forums where folks can rant about politicians.

As long as the discussion of politics revolves around funding/supporting development projects I see no reason why they can't be discussed. There are political threads on each subforum in the Canada forum and a particularly vehement anti-Government thread on the main Canada forum with nothing relating to developments at all. The Halifax subforum, for example, regularly discusses Regional Council members and their various views and positions ranging from garbage collection to zoning bylaws.

Essentially-speaking, if Moncton were to continue using the Coliseum for the next ten years they would be missing out on a tremendous amount of events which cannot (and will not) visit the Coliseum again. Concerts consistently skip Moncton because the Coliseum is too small or the amenities not plentiful enough. Sporting events like the Memorial Cup, Brier, Tournament of Hearts, Skate Canada, and any number of different World Championships prefer larger, newer venues with, again, more amenities. All of these events bring millions of dollars to the local economy and, although not directly, pay off the public cost of the arena entirely. It's about more than just sinking money into an arena/events centre...they help boost the local economy as a whole.

Originally Posted by nwalbert

The reality is that these projects do lose money which is why it falls to the government to fund them.

The reality is that the Federal government refuses to fund large arena projects because they are seen as building homes for money-making franchises with multi-million dollar salary'd players. They don't lose money; it's ROI. Smaller cities like Moncton, Halifax, and Saint John are not home to sports teams with million dollar athletes.

[Monctoncore]

I really don't see Brian Gallant completely stopping the project, he was just pointing out that just because they Tories made a promise doesn't mean that the Liberals have to follow through on it.
I think everyone is jumping to conclusions based on the recent "economic" news that the city recieved, plus add in Gallant making his views public on the project and mentioning how they need to look at it.. remember the conservatives did the same thing when first approached. It is all part of the job.

As for the economic news... the story bases everything on the fact the city has seen less subdivisions built this year than the past few... Look at how many new apartments and condos have been built, that alone can slow sprawl.

[P Unit]

Has there ever been any discussion whatsoever about the city partnering with whatever branch of the Irving empire that owns the Wildcats so that they can help bear some of the financial burden? Or, has there been any discussion with any private company to discuss partnerships? If there's such a slam dunk economic case for this thing, one has to think that it wouldn't be difficult to find private enterprise willing get on board in some way.

However much people believe this arena to be a panacea for Moncton's moribund downtown (and I have my doubts - many, many cities have played this game to limited success, given the associated costs), I think that asking the province to commit to this while struggling to keep hospitals open is a big ask.

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by P Unit

Has there ever been any discussion whatsoever about the city partnering with whatever branch of the Irving empire that owns the Wildcats so that they can help bear some of the financial burden? Or, has there been any discussion with any private company to discuss partnerships? If there's such a slam dunk economic case for this thing, one has to think that it wouldn't be difficult to find private enterprise willing get on board in some way.

However much people believe this arena to be a panacea for Moncton's moribund downtown (and I have my doubts - many, many cities have played this game to limited success, given the associated costs), I think that asking the province to commit to this while struggling to keep hospitals open is a big ask.

The economic case (as stated many times already) has nothing to do with the day to day operations of an event center which will most certainly lose money.

It has to do with the SPIN OFFS such as surrounding private investment in condos, hotels, shopping and resturants...there are at least two MASSIVE plots already purchased nearby this site (a full city block and a long forgotten swath near Vaughn Harvey) that are just waiting for confirmation on this project to BUILD. That means tax dollars in property tax...income tax for construction workers...sales tax from the completed projects etc etc etc....

The Irvings will not touch it because again the actual center will lose money, we may see a "naming rights" option show up to help out a bit (aka MIDLAND ARENA or something).

The province is not struggling to keep hospitals open...they are ho huming about doing the necessary aka closing schools and hospitals in long forgotten places...Many schools and hospitals have fallen into disrepair and are only 20% utilized...AMALGAMATE!

I'm personally still thinking positive on the events center file...I think Brian Gallant is putting on a show right now either so people don't think he's falling in line with the previous government....Or so people don't think he's "playing for the home-team" because he's from Moncton...

Regardless what he thinks this project makes excellent sense for Moncton right now, and Moncton is moving forward at a pace Brian can't afford to mess with. If we lose steam now what will be left to cheer for??? Energy East and its 75 jobs??? sorry no.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by P Unit

Has there ever been any discussion whatsoever about the city partnering with whatever branch of the Irving empire that owns the Wildcats so that they can help bear some of the financial burden? Or, has there been any discussion with any private company to discuss partnerships? If there's such a slam dunk economic case for this thing, one has to think that it wouldn't be difficult to find private enterprise willing get on board in some way.

What's the point of offering up your own private money when the Government will subsidize it for you? It's a catch-22. If anyone knows how to play the 'force the government into giving us money card' it's the Irvings. If anything, they'd probably come out in a few years and say something to the effect of: "If we don't have a new arena in x number of years there's a possibility the Wildcats may have to move...". Would it be true? Absolutely not; But all you have to do is sneeze around some of the Cabinet ministers in NB and they'll be on their knees pleading for any sort of amicable resolution.

Originally Posted by P Unit

However much people believe this arena to be a panacea for Moncton's moribund downtown (and I have my doubts - many, many cities have played this game to limited success, given the associated costs), I think that asking the province to commit to this while struggling to keep hospitals open is a big ask.

And many have done it with great success. Many regret not doing so (Hello, Ottawa). The hospital thing is a different situation altogether than financing arenas...we have a plethora of rural hospitals which have little-to-no reason to stay open outside of the fact that they've been there for x amount of years and residents can't fathom the task of having to drive twenty minutes further down the road to the next one if the hospital down the street closed.

Originally Posted by P Unit

The Irvings will not touch it because again the actual center will lose money, we may see a "naming rights" option show up to help out a bit (aka MIDLAND ARENA or something).

Cavendish Farms Centre
Sunbury Arena
Times & Transcript Arena
Kent Building Supples Arena
Chandler Arena

[riverviewer]

The Bay (Eatons) is gone

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Another good example is the Budweiser Gardens in London Ontario (also home to a CHL and an NBL team). It draws many major concerts and events and was used as a model in the initial stages of the Moncton events centre project. Budweiser Gardens has done wonders for the redevelopment and the re-energizing of downtown London. If only we could be as successful.

But then again Brian does know best. A billion dollars of fresh MacAdam on the roads of northern NB is certainly much much more important than fuelling the growth of the downtown of one of the few economic engines in this province......

I'd love to see Moncton get a new arena building large enough to allow for its seating capacity to be increased so that the Maritimes could be on major concert tour circuits someday.

Typically this calls for a minimum 12,000 to 14,000 concert seating capacity venue like for such 2014 tours as..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truth_About_Love_Tour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dressed...ll_Tour_(Cher)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moonshine_Jungle_Tour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prismatic_World_Tour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_with_the_Show_tour