VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

About friggen time! The HFR concept is like 6 years old at this point.

The amount of time they took was terrible and I'm critical of it. But there are some benefits here from the previous HFR approach.

1) A more open approach letting industry propose and develop a business model. This allows industry to decide what time of travel time offering is most profitable. This is increasingly leaning towards faster speeds and shorter travel times letting them compete with airlines.

2) Potentially less political risk when you have a project with major international players involved. Hopefully that reduces the motivation for the next government to simply cancel out of spite, lest they make Canada look less investment friendly.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The amount of time they took was terrible and I'm critical of it. But there are some benefits here from the previous HFR approach.

1) A more open approach letting industry propose and develop a business model. This allows industry to decide what time of travel time offering is most profitable. This is increasingly leaning towards faster speeds and shorter travel times letting them compete with airlines.

2) Potentially less political risk when you have a project with major international players involved. Hopefully that reduces the motivation for the next government to simply cancel out of spite, lest they make Canada look less investment friendly.

These are good points. #1 helps avoid the Ottawa LRT fiasco, and #2 reduces the odds of the next government cancelling it. If a contract is signed before 2025, PP is highly unlikely to cancel, IMO.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

These are good points. #1 helps avoid the Ottawa LRT fiasco, and #2 reduces the odds of the next government cancelling it. If a contract is signed before 2025, PP is highly unlikely to cancel, IMO.

It's not covered as much in the anglo press. But participants like Alstom have been highly critical of the HFR approach arguing that they should be allowed to optimize travel times and get more passengers (essentially drawing market share from airlines), so that yields can be increased. Some of the is self-serving, of course. Alstom wants to sell the same Avelia Liberty that Amtrak is buying for the Acela Express. But an open approach does mitigate accusations of bias. Bidders can put forward whatever approach they want. Best business case will win.

On cancellation, the contract signed in 2025 is only for development. Another construction contract is required in 2028. So there's still the risk of getting nixed. But a fully developed design does allow future fineness to relaunch quickly if they have too. Hoping the CPC isn't actually that vindictive that they sink a major national infrastructure project with massive benefits, just out of pettiness.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not covered as much in the anglo press. But participants like Alstom have been highly critical of the HFR approach arguing that they should be allowed to optimize travel times and get more passengers (essentially drawing market share from airlines), so that yields can be increased. Some of the is self-serving, of course. Alstom wants to sell the same Avelia Liberty that Amtrak is buying for the Acela Express. But an open approach does mitigate accusations of bias. Bidders can put forward whatever approach they want. Best business case will win.

On cancellation, the contract signed in 2025 is only for development. Another construction contract is required in 2028. So there's still the risk of getting nixed. But a fully developed design does allow future fineness to relaunch quickly if they have too. Hoping the CPC isn't actually that vindictive that they sink a major national infrastructure project with massive benefits, just out of pettiness.

High speed does not mean high frequency. However, if you own the corridor you travel through and you can go at a high speed, then if it is profitable to add more times per day, then it will be done. Between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal, I think there are about 5-6 each way that make up the triangle. If they can get that up to around 10, with the first ones leaving early morning and the last ones arriving around midnight, that could make it very competitive with flying. Regardless, I doubt anyone would argue that HFR/HSR would not be a good investment. I just hope it is not the lowest bid, but the best bid that is chosen.

[VANRIDERFAN]

My last flight from Regina to Halifax just made me want train travel even more. You are so packed in like sardines you can barely move. Yes I know this initiative will have no bearing on cross Canada travel but if I'm travelling from Montreal to Toronto the train will be the preferred choice.

[acottawa]

Some of you might appreciate this. Probably the first sitting President since Truman to take the train to get somewhere.

[MonctonRad]

Maybe Biden should reintroduce good old fashioned whistle stops for the next federal election campaign!

[sseguin]

Dedicated Tracks for the Corridor - An Overview of High Frequency Rail (HFR) in Canada

On February 17, 2023, the Request for Qualifications for HFR was launched to pre-qualify up to 3 bidders for the Request for Proposals. As such, it is a great time to reflect on what is HFR and what it will mean for Canada.

High Frequency Rail (HFR) is the current plan to improve passenger rail in the Corridor. By using dedicated tracks between Quebec City and Toronto, the travel experience is bound to improve considerably. With more frequent, reliable and faster trains, it is expected that an increasing number of people will choose to ride the rails instead of flying or driving, an important element in addressing the climate crisis. HFR will be the most transformative change to passenger rail in Canada since the incorporation of VIA Rail in 1977.

• Video Link

[swimmer_spe]

Am I right that once they reactivate the Havelock Sub that they will have tracks owned by Via from almost Toronto through Ottawa to almost Montreal?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Am I right that once they reactivate the Havelock Sub that they will have tracks owned by Via from almost Toronto through Ottawa to almost Montreal?

Havelock goes from Scarborough Yard to Havelock. If they purchased the Havelock Sub from CP there would be gaps from Havelock to Smith Falls and downtown Toronto to Scarborough (and East of Coteau).

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Havelock goes from Scarborough Yard to Havelock. If they purchased the Havelock Sub from CP there would be gaps from Havelock to Smith Falls and downtown Toronto to Scarborough (and East of Coteau).

I assume he meant „segments still owned by CN or CP“ and that would only be Quebec Gare du Palais to Allenby Junction (CN), St. Martin Junction-Montreal-Dorval-De Beaujeu (CP/CN/CP), Smiths Falls-Glen Tay (CP) and Agincourt-GO territory…

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Havelock goes from Scarborough Yard to Havelock. If they purchased the Havelock Sub from CP there would be gaps from Havelock to Smith Falls and downtown Toronto to Scarborough (and East of Coteau).

I meant the section that has been abandoned east of Peterborough.

So, if they bought east of Peterborough to Smith Falls, isn't the rest Via owned already?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I meant the section that has been abandoned east of Peterborough.

So, if they bought east of Peterborough to Smith Falls, isn't the rest Via owned already?

I don’t think it has been abandoned, there appeared to be activity in Havelock last time we drove by in December.

There is a snowmobile trail from Havelock to Glen Tay that I think is an abandoned ROW.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I meant the section that has been abandoned east of Peterborough.

So, if they bought east of Peterborough to Smith Falls, isn't the rest Via owned already?

CP's Belleville sub goes from Toronto to Smiths Falls. The Havelock sub only goes as far east as Glen Tay where it joins the Belleville sub. The CP route was previously double tracked all the way from Montreal to Glen Tay so the right of way between Glen Tay and Smiths Falls is wide enough for a second track that could be passenger only except for a 10,200 ft siding at Elmsley 8.1 mi west of Smiths Falls. Via only owns the ex CP between Smiths Falls and Brockville, the ex CN between Smiths Falls and Ottawa Station and the ex CN between Ottawa Station and Coteau,QC.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t think it has been abandoned, there appeared to be activity in Havelock last time we drove by in December.

There is a snowmobile trail from Havelock to Glen Tay that I think is an abandoned ROW.

That abandoned ROW is where I mean.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

CP's Belleville sub goes from Toronto to Smiths Falls. The Havelock sub only goes as far east as Glen Tay where it joins the Belleville sub. The CP route was previously double tracked all the way from Montreal to Glen Tay so the right of way between Glen Tay and Smiths Falls is wide enough for a second track that could be passenger only except for a 10,200 ft siding at Elmsley 8.1 mi west of Smiths Falls. Via only owns the ex CP between Smiths Falls and Brockville, the ex CN between Smiths Falls and Ottawa Station and the ex CN between Ottawa Station and Coteau,QC.

So, from Smiths Falls and Coteau, the tracks and ROW could be upgraded for HSR?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That abandoned ROW is where I mean.



So, from Smiths Falls and Coteau, the tracks and ROW could be upgraded for HSR?

Yes, but anything can be upgraded for a cost. To have HSR you need complete grade separation, curve reduction, and bridge expansions or replacement. A rail/rail separation over the CP tracks between Alexandria, ON and Coteau, QC would need to be built. Bypasses will need to be built around many built up residential areas.

[Truenorth00]

The Alstom plan doesn't upgrade Montreal-Ottawa substantially. Only up to 200kph.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Alstom plan doesn't upgrade Montreal-Ottawa substantially. Only up to 200kph.

anything less than 150mph (~241kph) is not true high-speed rail in my opinion. This is 2023, after all.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

anything less than 150mph (~241kph) is not true high-speed rail in my opinion. This is 2023, after all.

HFR is not aiming to be "true high-speed rail". It's aiming to have certain travel time reductions. Alstom's plan largely aims at reducing travel times from Toronto to Ottawa and Montreal, by speeding up the Peterborough-Smiths Falls portion to > 150 mph. They are just being strategic with investments.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

HFR is not aiming to be "true high-speed rail". It's aiming to have certain travel time reductions. Alstom's plan largely aims at reducing travel times from Toronto to Ottawa and Montreal, by speeding up the Peterborough-Smiths Falls portion to > 150 mph. They are just being strategic with investments.

If the reduction in travel times and proposed speeds are met then it'll be a significant upgrade over the current service. Currently Ottawa-Toronto is between 4hr35 and 4hr55 which isn't great but is equivalent to driving depending on the day. If that can be brought down to 3hr15/3hr30 then not only will it be faster than driving but increasingly closer to flying.

Canada isn't ready for ultra-fast Shinkansen between Ottawa and Montreal but we are ready for increased frequencies, reliability, and improved times. The first step is becoming an option that's better than driving.