New York City - Transit News

[Crawford]

Chuck Schumer appears to be a very clear proponent of congestion pricing. Hopefully he can put pressure on Gridlock Kathy to follow the law:

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/06/...ver-up-edition

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Gantz

Not in this case. The roads purposely funnel people from Long Island into NYC. Even if you are not going into NYC, you MUST drive through it to get anywhere else. So yes, it would help creating a bypass for these people. Its simply artificial congestion. And no, congestion in all of these cities is not the same. About 8 million people live on Long Island, there is no reason why they (along with all of the trucks/deliveries to the island) have to get funneled through NYC.

The only part of NYC with the proposed congestion charge is Manhattan below Central Park and it doesn't apply to the bridges, tunnels or expressways. So the expressways all act as a by-pass as do the VN and RFK bridges. So congestion is not caused by Long Islanders using central Manhattan surface streets to travel to other places.

And I never suggested that the congestion in all cities is "the same"; just that in large cities the demand - from one cause/source or another - is always too much to satisfy meaning there will always be congestion unless there are restrictions like tolls. Whether or not the congestion has different origins is irrelevant to that fact. So pretending that one can just solve it by building more capacity or bypasses or make it flow more smoothly just turns one into the Wiley Coyote of traffic engineering. "Oh, I know, I'll try this!" **comically backfires** Ok, well this time I've got it; I'll try THIS!!" **also spectacularly backfires** And so on and so forth lol.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Gantz

Make a bridge/dam to CT to completely bypass NYC. Ideally, another one direct to Sandy Hook, NJ as well - even if you make it for trucks only this would be huge.
Same with the NYC subway. Right now all of these lines funnel everyone into Manhattan for no reason, thats why IBX is important. There was also a rail tunnel proposal (Cross Harbor) bypassing Manhattan, direct from NJ to Brooklyn. Having dead-end rail terminals in Manhattan is also idiotic. No one in the world does this. Trying to get from Brooklyn to Queens on a subway??? Why don't you visit Times Square first! Because that place is surely not congested!

But of course, all of this presumes you are actually *serious* about tackling congestion, and not simply trying to get $$$.

I don't think a complete bypass of NYC to the south is technologically feasible. A bypass to the north is well studied and seems possible though.

[mrnyc]

cross harbor ok, but a bridge through sandy hook nj, one of the best rec, if not thee best and most beautiful recreation sites/peninsula in the area. umm, no.

[mrnyc]

there is a new redesign for the brklyn hts triple cantilever —




City proposes new redesign for BQE triple cantilever, delays construction until 2029

By Kirstyn Brendlen
Posted on June 24, 2024


The city has a new proposal for the battered triple cantilever portion of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway in Brooklyn Heights, but no matter how the administration chooses to overhaul the roadway, construction won’t start until 2029, a year later than the most recently-announced plan.

Ahead of two public workshops about “BQE Central,” the 1.5-mile city-owned stretch of the BQE between Atlantic Avenue and Sands Street, the Department of Transportation released their newest idea for the triple cantilever — a “stacked” design, not dissimilar to the roadway’s current three-tiered layout.


more:
https://www.brooklynpaper.com/new-bq...on-delay-2029/


The city has proposed a new fix for the Triple Cantilever section of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway. File photo by Todd Maisel

[mrnyc]

yay — and btw that ridership count is notoriously vastly underestimated —



Staten Island Railway to get new trains for first time in 50 years

By Ramsey Khalifeh
Published Jun 24, 2024


The new train cars will be a major modernization for the dilapidated Staten Island Railway. The current fleet of trains on the line — called R44s — first entered service in the early 1970s when John Lindsay was mayor, and are now prone to mechanical issues. Today, the line only carries about 7,000 riders per weekday, compared to nearly 4 million trips per day on the subway system.


more:
https://gothamist.com/news/staten-is...me-in-50-years


Marc A. Hermann / MTA

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't think a complete bypass of NYC to the south is technologically feasible. A bypass to the north is well studied and seems possible though.

Its feasible. NJ to Queens is only ~5 miles distance across the water. Better yet, combine it with flood gates/dam to prevent sea surges/storms in entire NY harbor.
To put it in perspective: HK to Macau bridge/tunnel is 34 miles.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The only part of NYC with the proposed congestion charge is Manhattan below Central Park and it doesn't apply to the bridges, tunnels or expressways. So the expressways all act as a by-pass as do the VN and RFK bridges. So congestion is not caused by Long Islanders using central Manhattan surface streets to travel to other places.

Yes they do. People use Holland and Lincoln tunnels all the time. And BQE/Belt Parkway is a complete nightmare. Again, if you create bypasses for LI traffic to not go through NYC it would alleviate a lot of headaches. Same for West Side Highway. Half of the traffic on it are people just trying to pass through. They don't want to be there. Same on the other side on FDR.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

cross harbor ok, but a bridge through sandy hook nj, one of the best rec, if not thee best and most beautiful recreation sites/peninsula in the area. umm, no.

There is already ROW there anyway between the current road and the flood seawall.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Gantz

Yes they do. People use Holland and Lincoln tunnels all the time. And BQE/Belt Parkway is a complete nightmare. Again, if you create bypasses for LI traffic to not go through NYC it would alleviate a lot of headaches. Same for West Side Highway. Half of the traffic on it are people just trying to pass through. They don't want to be there. Same on the other side on FDR.

If that's actually true that central Manhattan congestion is worsened by people passing through, then a congestion charge is exactly what we need to encourage people to take alternate routes. The congestion charge area is one of the most economically productive and important in the world and should be protected from the cost and inefficiencies caused by congestion. And that's true whether or not less socially and economically important routes are also congested.

But if that really is the main concern (which the whack-a-mole of excuses makes me skeptical of) then the solution is to lobby to divert some of the funds raised by the charge to go toward providing or improving alternate routes. It isn't simply to do nothing and hope such a route will materialize while traffic clogs a dense and important urban center. And to say "the solution is to build the alternate route" when there's no plan or funding source to actually do it, is functionally the same as saying, "do nothing".

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If that's actually true that central Manhattan congestion is worsened by people passing through, then a congestion charge is exactly what we need to encourage people to take alternate routes. The congestion charge area is one of the most economically productive and important in the world and should be protected from the cost and inefficiencies caused by congestion. And that's true whether or not less socially and economically important routes are also congested.

But if that really is the main concern (which the whack-a-mole of excuses makes me skeptical of) then the solution is to lobby to divert some of the funds raised by the charge to go toward providing or improving alternate routes. It isn't simply to do nothing and hope such a route will materialize while traffic clogs a dense and important urban center. And to say "the solution is to build the alternate route" when there's no plan or funding source to actually do it, is functionally the same as saying, "do nothing".

The point is that the current alternative routes are either inconvenient or are very out of the way. All it would do is cause cars staying on the road for longer, driving greater distances, while doing the same trips. Making cars circling already congested NYC for extra 5-10 miles on the street does not alleviate congestion. Do you think people actually want to drive their car into Manhattan? If you make a route that would bypass it, most drivers would prefer it.
Same with the subway. I do not want to go through Times Square when going from Brooklyn to Queens. Do I have a choice? No. The system funnels everyone into Manhattan for no reason. My only choice is to get funneled into Manhattan or add an extra ~1 hour to my commute.
The congestion pricing money would be spend on Phase 2 Second avenue subway. Probably the only infrastructure project in the city that does not alleviate any congestion. Literally every single other project would be an improvement if we are strictly talking about congestion, than extending Q to 125h.

[k1052]

MTA is going through all the stuff that's going to be deferred/canceled due to losing the congestion revenue. It's a lot and even basic upkeep, signal upgrades, and rolling stock purchases are impacted. Really setting up NYCT to have multiple major reliability crises in the coming years. But the diner owners are happy.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by k1052

MTA is going through all the stuff that's going to be deferred/canceled due to losing the congestion revenue. It's a lot and even basic upkeep, signal upgrades, and rolling stock purchases are impacted. Really setting up NYCT to have multiple major reliability crises in the coming years. But the diner owners are happy.

Even with congestion revenue MTA would be broke. Their major issue is costs, not revenue side.
They got billions of dollars during COVID and they pissed it all away with nothing to show for it.
Remember, congestion pricing was projected to bring about $1 billion a year, or 5% of MTA current operating budget in revenue. Those are not some Earth-shattering funds. In 10 years, that would be enough to fix a staircase, maaaybe.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Gantz

The point is that the current alternative routes are either inconvenient or are very out of the way. All it would do is cause cars staying on the road for longer, driving greater distances, while doing the same trips. Making cars circling already congested NYC for extra 5-10 miles on the street does not alleviate congestion. Do you think people actually want to drive their car into Manhattan? If you make a route that would bypass it, most drivers would prefer it.

The congestion charge isn't meant to eliminate congestion in the entire city. It's meant to eliminate it within the congestion zone because that's the zone where it's most essential to remove congestion and that has the most alternatives. The irony is that if you discourage the small percentage of drivers necessary to remove congestion in that zone it would makes for a much nicer, faster, and more convenient drive for anyone who does still need to pass through. But what you seemingly keep missing, is that if you diverted some cars from passing through using something like a bypass and didn't use any congestion price, the capacity would be quickly absorbed by vehicles since there's so much latent demand. That's why such projects are not a solution to congestion. They may be very good and useful projects in terms of providing transportation but that has no bearing on the need for a congestion charge. The two things aren't related.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The congestion charge isn't meant to eliminate congestion in the entire city. It's meant to eliminate it within the congestion zone because that's the zone where it's most essential to remove congestion and that has the most alternatives. The irony is that if you discourage the small percentage of drivers necessary to remove congestion in that zone it would makes for a much nicer, faster, and more convenient drive for anyone who does still need to pass through. But what you seemingly keep missing, is that if you diverted some cars from passing through using something like a bypass and didn't use any congestion price, the capacity would be quickly absorbed by vehicles since there's so much latent demand. That's why such projects are not a solution to congestion. They may be very good and useful projects in terms of providing transportation but that has no bearing on the need for a congestion charge. The two things aren't related.

That is what I said before. Congestion charge is nothing more than the failure of infrastructure. You are basically artificially forcing people not to do the trips. You can make driving in Manhattan cost $1M per mile! I am sure then you'd get nice and empty streets. Better yet, just blow up the bridges into the island altogether. I am sure that would get rid of cars.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Gantz

Even with congestion revenue MTA would be broke. Their major issue is costs, not revenue side.
They got billions of dollars during COVID and they pissed it all away with nothing to show for it.
Remember, congestion pricing was projected to bring about $1 billion a year, or 5% of MTA current operating budget in revenue. Those are not some Earth-shattering funds. In 10 years, that would be enough to fix a staircase, maaaybe.

I'm certainly not one to shy away from complaints about MTA cost control on their major capital projects but the list of stuff that's getting canned is absolutely going to directly impact service in the coming years. The total fiscal hit is north of $17B that has now vanished from the capital budget. Costs are also going to only increase as bonding and contracting will demand a further premium as the MTA is utterly unreliable in terms of execution.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Gantz

That is what I said before. Congestion charge is nothing more than the failure of infrastructure. You are basically artificially forcing people not to do the trips. You can make driving in Manhattan cost $1M per mile! I am sure then you'd get nice and empty streets. Better yet, just blow up the bridges into the island altogether. I am sure that would get rid of cars.

Unironically the city should give the 14th St. and Broadway treatments to a lot more streets, especially if congestion pricing is dead. The city is for the people that live in it not commuters from NJ and Long Island.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by k1052

Unironically the city should give the 14th St. and Broadway treatments to a lot more streets, especially if congestion pricing is dead. The city is for the people that live in it not commuters from NJ and Long Island.

I agree. They need to make some of those summer road closures permanent.
Congestion pricing would just send cars to different parts of NYC without fixing the main issue - getting off Long Island without going through NYC. Ditto to all the freight going into the Island. No reason why we have asphalt/cement trucks on BQE headed to fix a road in Lindenhurst or whatever. Its a huge issue.

[Crawford]

Yay! Gridlock Kathy's last-minute decision to "pause" congestion pricing will likely result in a loss of 102,000 mostly higher-paying jobs. Great job, Kathy!

Canceling Congestion Pricing Could Kill 100,000 New York Jobs
Thousands of high-paying jobs in the state could be at risk if the funding that had been expected from congestion pricing is not restored, a new report says.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/26/n...-job-loss.html

This is 1000% on Gridlock Kathy.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

And to say "the solution is to build the alternate route" when there's no plan or funding source to actually do it, is functionally the same as saying, "do nothing".

There is no "alternative route". The state, in the postwar decades, tried multiple times to build a road & rail crossing from LI to CT. NIMBYs killed it.

The same NIMBYs who don't want to pay for tolls also don't want any new infrastructure built anywhere. You would get laughed out of every North Shore LI town with such a proposal. These are affluent towns that go crazy when someone proposes a 5-unit building, or paints an old building the wrong color.