The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[WarrenC12]

Swappable batteries have been an idea for years. It never takes off. Feels like an idea for people who can't get their head around charging and keep coming back to the gas station idea.

Maybe there is some application in fleets, but nobody seems to be investing.

Here's Tesla doing a live demo in 2013(!)

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[goodgrowth]

Beginning to think the impact the Japanese, Germans and South Koreans had on auto markets will seem tame in retrospect to the impact China might have.

This is Xiaomi's EV factory...which decided to get into auto manufacturing in 2021.

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[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Swappable batteries have been an idea for years. It never takes off. Feels like an idea for people who can't get their head around charging and keep coming back to the gas station idea.

Maybe there is some application in fleets, but nobody seems to be investing.

I think it works in places like China because of the density and just a certain comfort with not owning the battery, and more options in general. If you don't want to rely on swapping, there are plenty of other options. We still don't have tons of EV options here. And we especially lack options in the price sensitive segments that might most consider battery swapping. Nor do we have the density to really justify it. There's still a ton of buyers with garages here.

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Beginning to think the impact the Japanese, Germans and South Koreans had on auto markets will seem tame in retrospect to the impact China might have.

This is Xiaomi's EV factory...which decided to get into auto manufacturing in 2021.

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I've been saying this for years over here. And people keep reassuring me that they have no clue and can't beat legacy auto. All based on their opinion of Chinese manufacturing formed by buying cheap dollar store or Walmart crap. In every market where Chinese EVs go up against EVs from legacy automakers they do well. And not only that, they keep improving both the vehicles and manufacturing processes at a faster rate than legacy automakers.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Beginning to think the impact the Japanese, Germans and South Koreans had on auto markets will seem tame in retrospect to the impact China might have.

This is Xiaomi's EV factory...which decided to get into auto manufacturing in 2021.

Of course, China has stolen from the very best!

Gotta love that new EV from Xiaomi, a total rip-off of the Porsche Taycan design. Some things never change

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Of course, China has stolen from the very best!

Gotta love that new EV from Xiaomi, a total rip-off of the Porsche Taycan design. Some things never change

The differences in design are subtle, but otherwise they have different specifications. (The designer previously designed EVs for BMW).

One has a better drag co-efficient, is lighter, has a higher top speed, has a much longer range (800km vs 416), has fully independent suspension, has 41% more cargo space, has more battery power, and a bigger screen. And it's price is less than half the cost of the other car.

Hint, it's not the Porsche.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The differences in design are subtle, but otherwise they have different specifications. (The designer previously designed EVs for BMW).

One has a better drag co-efficient, is lighter, has a higher top speed, has a much longer range (800km vs 416), has fully independent suspension, has 41% more cargo space, has more battery power, and a bigger screen. And it's price is less than half the cost of the other car.

Hint, it's not the Porsche.

Not surprising as the Taycan is an ancient design in EV terms. As to cargo space, the Taycan wasn’t designed to be a grocery getter for Madame Wang.

[theman23]

I doubt we'll see that in Canada, but if we do it's not going to be $40k USD/$60k CAD. The Chinese auto market is hyper competitive and is where they're being forced to cut prices, but those prices won't stay that low if/when they get here. Aren't most of BYD's exports to western markets priced over twice what they sell for in China?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by theman23

I doubt we'll see that in Canada, but if we do it's not going to be $40k USD/$60k CAD. The Chinese auto market is hyper competitive and is where they're being forced to cut prices, but those prices won't stay that low if/when they get here. Aren't most of BYD's exports to western markets priced over twice what they sell for in China?

If BYD set up in Mexico we might see them.

In Australia, the BYD Seal is $50,000 Au, which is about $33,000 US. In China it's sold at $23,000 US. (It's hard to be sure, but it looks like the Australian version has slightly higher spec). The BYD Dolphin is $38,990 Au ($25,700 US). When it was launched in China it was $15,700 US.

When the MG4 was launched in China in 2022 it was RMB 186,600 ($25,800) and in the UK it was $39,870 US. The 2024 models now start from $34,175, as prices have come down. (I guess they're cheaper in China too).

So yes, they cost more than in China (obviously), but no, they're not more than double. And they're often cheaper than the equivalent Teslas or VWs.

[theman23]

Seems like there's a range, but generally speaking they're significantly more expensive after export. Anywhere from 50-100%. The examples I was looking at were the Atto 3 (32k usd in Aus vs 16k usd in China) and Seagull (9k USD in China vs 20k USD in Brazil and Mexico). Going back to the Xiaomi, I would be shocked if that car comes here. But if it somehow did, I would expect a 6 figure price point for the top level model with all those features and specs you mentioned.

Also for whatever reason, BEV manufacturers don't seem keen on introducing low priced models here. For all the hype about the Volvo EX30 last year, its only going to be $3k CAD cheaper than what the XC40 recharge retailed for last year. Meanwhile the Americans get a model of the EX30 that has an entry point nearly $10k CAD lower than what we pay.

[Innsertnamehere]

On the opposite end of things though, the Equinox is retailing in Canada for significantly less than it is south of the border. The base trim is likely going to land right around the low 40k range in Canada for a 500+km range compact SUV.

[urbandreamer]

What a deal err not. I can get a more practical Mazda 3 for $27k.

Swappable batteries will work in NA, especially Quebec and Eastern US cities. Maybe you're stuck in 2020 EV think?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

What a deal err not. I can get a more practical Mazda 3 for $27k.

They aren't in the same class. And the fact that F150s and Silverados are so popular says that your sense of practicality isn't commonly shared.

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Swappable batteries will work in NA, especially Quebec and Eastern US cities. Maybe you're stuck in 2020 EV think?

Swappable batteries are going to appeal to a segment (buyers willing to not own a battery) of a segment (EVs). That is less than 1% of all car buyers. And to cater to them companies would have to incur massive capital costs setting up battery swap stations. Not happening.

There are reasons that battery swapping took off in Asia and even struggling in Europe. In North America, outside of a few urban centres and NYC, way too many people have garages to make this appealing.

[lio45]

Just saw my very first Rivian in person! It pulled from the side in front of me so I did get a good look (then I managed to barely take this pic from behind before it escaped).

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[lio45]

I also took fresh pics of all the three new battery plants in the Bécancour industrial park (our brand new "battery ecosystem", of which our govt is so proud... at the cost of a few billion of public money tho). All three are a stone's throw from each other. A LOT more traffic in the park than before!

[ssiguy]

The idea of battery swapping is a good one and would help make EVs {once the prices drop} be more appealing to customers for longer trips and for those who cannot recharge at home.

That said, it's going to take a LOT of money by the providers to make this feasible both in initial infrastructure and operations. Obviously, the installation of one of these centres is going to be whopping not only the facilities but also the electrical infrastructure. Then there will be the problem of older batteries. Batteries only have a certain lifespan depending on usage and when a car wants a new battery charge, the company may find out that they have swapped their working batteries for one's that no longer work.

This swapping also doesn't take into account the fast changing battery technologies. Your battery swap may work for a 2024 model but what about a 2030 when perhaps the batteries are smaller or a have a different setup/configuration? A battery of today and years from now will not be remotely similar meaning these stations are going to have to have different battery packs available for different vehicles. This is a kin to a gas station having to change it's fuel hose for every different type of vehicle that comes along.

I'm not at all saying this does not have great promise as clearly it does but like so many things EV, there are going to be a lot of kinks worked out of the system and vastly more standardization before they become practical and if companies/governments think EV recharging stations are expensive, wait till they start having to produce these huge swapping stations.

[casper]

Originally Posted by lio45

Just saw my very first Rivian in person! It pulled from the side in front of me so I did get a good look (then I managed to barely take this pic from behind before it escaped).

I don't know about the trucks. The Rivian vans look like they have taken the use of plastic in vehicles to new heights. This is the a tour of the ones Amazon is using the US.

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[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by casper

I don't know about the trucks. The Rivian vans look like they have taken the use of plastic in vehicles to new heights. This is the a tour of the ones Amazon is using the US.

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Funny, I just delivered at the garage at the Purolator depot in London the other day and they have one of those Rivian delivery vans in there. I thought it was a Brightdrop at first (Purolator is buying those) and then had a closer look. I wish I had taken pictures. The mechanic said it was dropped off a few days earlier and they aren't sure what they are supposed to be doing with it. It's got an Illinois plate on it, it's plain white, and they were told not to put it out on deliveries. He wasn't even sure if the plugs that were installed for their eTransits works on the Rivian

[Truenorth00]

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[urbandreamer]

Re: Battery swapping. I just watched TFL guy test the new Fiat 500 E which features a dreadfull range of about 160 miles in ideal conditions, meaning in Canadian winters 90 miles or so. It has a painfully slow charging curve. I don't have hours to waste charging in undesirable public charging locations around Toronto (just like I wouldn't sit filling a gas car for 25 minutes either), so swappable tech is the logical solution.

TFL said a similar equipped Mini had 1 hour driving range followed by 1 hour on a charger. Ugh.

Oh, and the 500e is $35k USD lol.

A standardized cell shape & size like the A/AA/C/D format of old would help, so only the energy density/range would change over the years.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Re: Battery swapping. I just watched TFL guy test the new Fiat 500 E which features a dreadfull range of about 160 miles in ideal conditions, meaning in Canadian winters 90 miles or so. It has a painfully slow charging curve. I don't have hours to waste charging in undesirable public charging locations around Toronto (just like I wouldn't sit filling a gas car for 25 minutes either), so swappable tech is the logical solution.

TFL said a similar equipped Mini had 1 hour driving range followed by 1 hour on a charger. Ugh.

As I and others have said earlier, you don't understand how charging works in real life. And you probably won't until you get an EV (you seem to lack the ability to imagine this in detail). The 500e takes 35 mins at a fast charger to go from 0 to 80%. Since most people aren't sipping electrons beyond 80% or starting at 0%, that means they'll charge while doing something else. 30 mins is the time to get groceries, or have a meeting or half the time of a quick workout. Nobody is sitting in their car for 30 mins waiting for it to charge. Maybe you would. But not most normal folks. And since the above is no big deal to most, there's also no case for billions to be spent on battery swap stations when chargers keep rolling out.

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Oh, and the 500e is $35k USD lol.

The low range (relatively) and high cost is mostly because it isn't made in North America and is mostly aimed at urban hipsters and maybe car sharing services (for which it is actually pretty well suited). Those TFL tests where they basically drive out the battery at high speed aren't realistic for how these cars would actually be used.

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

A standardized cell shape & size like the A/AA/C/D format of old would help, so only the energy density/range would change over the years.

The car companies could barely agree on charging port standards. And even these aren't universal across the world and had to be imposed by governments. Standardized battery packs that restrict auto design are even harder. And possibly impossible with structural battery packs.