Halifax Stadium Discussion

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by someone123

And Halifax doesn't have a CFL team.

A $200M stadium is clearly far beyond what the city needs or can afford. I doubt that Regina will follow through on the $500M stadium plan. It is bad enough that here in Vancouver we just spent over $500M on a stadium roof with ten times the population to absorb the cost.

Why does EVERYONE say $500 million was spent on a roof for BC Place, it was a complete renovation that puts it almost on par with any new stadium in North America. It has all new seats, turf, scoreboard, LED ribbon, cabling, almost 1000 LED monitors thoroughout, new glass, seismic upgrades, etc. It was all needed for a building that is used almost 250 days a year, which now includes the Whitecaps, trade shows and other events that they will be able to support now, such as big conventions that can be done in the stadium now b/c it is wired to support it.
If the case is compelling enough then it is worth investing just like it would be in Halifax. If concerts, soccer, CFL, university sports, etc events can justify the costs of this stadium then they should build it. I think it does

[Hali87]

From today's Herald:

Uteck: Stadium political football

Halifax has run out of time to build a stadium to host the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup, says one Halifax regional councillor.

And the mayor’s recent attempt to find business partners for the project has more to do with the upcoming municipal election than soccer, Coun. Sue Uteck (Northwest Arm-South End) charged Wednesday.

"This is just re-electioneering at its finest," Uteck said.

Mayor Peter Kelly disagreed. "It’s not about politics . . . it’s about fairness."

Since the stadium talk began, Kelly has said businesses interested in jumping on board various aspects of the project, including advertising, food concessions, potential adjacent development and other potential stadium uses, have approached the city.

And the mayor believes others might be interested in joining the project.

Halifax wants to host the 2014 FIFA U-20 Women’s World Cup and the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup.

The events are predicted to bring about $58 million in economic spinoffs to the city as well as create about 400 jobs, the mayor said.

The city has committed to contributing $20 million toward a proposed $71-million facility. Kelly said the facility’s construction would bring another $94 million in economic benefit to the region and create up to 550 jobs.

The Canadian Soccer Association requires host cities to have a stadium with a minimum seating capacity of 20,000. Initially, Halifax had until the end of December to get its stadium plan together. That deadline has been extended to March 31.

Kelly said he’s not throwing in the towel but he admitted that time is growing short.

Last month, the city mailed out a business plan for the stadium to the province’s MLAs. Kelly is hoping the effort will bear fruit.

Uteck said the citizen-led stadium analysis steering committee’s preferred site is not available and the public’s choice of Shannon Park would not be ready because of the construction required.

While Shannon Park and the committee’s other potential sites, one in Burnside and the other in Dartmouth Crossing, all require work such as site clearing and installing water and sewer, Kelly insisted there is still time.

These last ditch efforts by the mayor are more about optics than reality, Uteck maintained.

"In the end council is going to wear this," she said. "It’s a bit of a running joke among councillors."

Source:http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/5...tical-football

[someone123]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

Why does EVERYONE say $500 million was spent on a roof for BC Place, it was a complete renovation that puts it almost on par with any new stadium in North America. It has all new seats, turf, scoreboard, LED ribbon, cabling, almost 1000 LED monitors thoroughout, new glass, seismic upgrades, etc. It was all needed for a building that is used almost 250 days a year, which now includes the Whitecaps, trade shows and other events that they will be able to support now, such as big conventions that can be done in the stadium now b/c it is wired to support it.
If the case is compelling enough then it is worth investing just like it would be in Halifax. If concerts, soccer, CFL, university sports, etc events can justify the costs of this stadium then they should build it. I think it does

You are correct. The roof was only part of the renovations.

I'm not sure a compelling case was ever made for the renovations. Originally (as recently as 2008) they were sold as a $150M plan and at some point there was to be some sort of private partnership that apparently fell through, resulting in the public paying $560M or so to renovate the venue that was build only a few decades ago for approximately $280M in today's dollars. That is my impression, at least. I would not hold up BC Place as a model for Halifax to follow. I would also avoid comparing stadiums in different cities, because spending priorities in some places are totally out of whack. Plenty of US cities have bombed-out inner cities and gold plated sports venues. Vancouver's not far off from that model -- a few blocks away from BC Place is one of the worst neighbourhoods in North America.

[someone123]

As for Halifax's stadium, it's probably time to take a step back, switch gears, and come up with a medium term plan for a great site and low cost, expandable design. Now is also the time to be raising public money if possible and talking to potential funding partners like SMU.

Good news I guess is you'll be able to see the FIFA events in Moncton, as usual.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Going even further 'down market' with a stadium like Halifax is proposing just isn't going to fly in the CFL. The big market teams already have a tough time holding the attention in their marketplaces. If anything, the league is trying to achieve the semblance of 'major' league. That means stadia like what Winnipeg is building. Halifax doesn't have a hope in hell of attracting a CFL team with the current proposal. It's about up to par with US high school facilities. If this means the CFL remains at 8-10 teams (without Halifax), so be it.

Halifax needs to build a CFL appropriate stadium if it wants to play in that league. The CFL shouldn't go down market to accommodate Halifax.

New stadiums being built in Ottawa and Hamilton will only seat about 25k, as does Molson Stadium in Montreal.

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I would tend to agree when the studies are considering MLB, NFL, NHL and NBA teams for which owners are constantly holding cities at ransom to build more lavish sports venues. I actually admire Los Angeles for saying no to a lavish stadium and the NFL (even though I enjoy watching the NFL).

However, most people in the municipality are thinking in terms of a low cost stadium that could be expanded for the CFL. I don't think the "no economic benefit" argument holds when it means that the HRM must ignore every outdoor sports event held in Canada and a national sports league like the CFL with a relatively low salary cap.

In fact I wonder what the studies would say about the prospect of a big city suddenly going without any stadium. Would it be better off? I highly doubt it.

[resetcbu1]

Originally Posted by someone123

Good news I guess is you'll be able to see the FIFA events in Moncton, as usual.

?????

Edit : oops didn't read the above article

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by someone123

As for Halifax's stadium, it's probably time to take a step back, switch gears, and come up with a medium term plan for a great site and low cost, expandable design. Now is also the time to be raising public money if possible and talking to potential funding partners like SMU.

Good point. A large majority of residents showed support for a stadium. I don't think HRM Council can be faulted for making an effort to be a host city for the 2015 FIFA Cup, and the deadline isn't up. However, I would blame any Councillors who decide that missing out on the FIFA Cup is an excuse to forget about a stadium.

If the HRM will not be a host city for the 2015 FIFA Women's Cup, then picking a good central location with good public transportation access and vehicular access should be addressed. Once a central location is picked then the HRM needs to acquire the land so that it has a location to put a stadium. Several people on this forum have mentioned a building fund that the public can contribute to. That idea continues to be ignored.

I am not impressed by Councillor Uteck's comment - "In the end council is going to wear this," she said. "It’s a bit of a running joke among councillors." I get the impression that these Councillors with the running joke are the ones who plan to forget about a stadium if the current push for a stadium doesn't succeed. The effort has only failed if a majority of Councillors decide, once again, that they are going to abandon the idea. Was there a poll taken in which the majority of residents said to forget about a stadium, again??? This time residents should not accept "no" as an answer - residents have said that they do want a stadium.

[someone123]

I get the sense unfortunately that many councillors are politically opportunistic. Instead of championing important issues, they look for popular bandwagons to jump on to help their chances at re-election.

Another common problem is that councillors are too focused on minor local issues; it's great that they're in touch with their constituents but that is not an excuse for ignoring the planning role of regional council. Hopefully the reduced council size will get us away from the "cat bylaw" mentality a bit and bring in new people with a less parochial perspective. I think that as districts grow people need to take on a wider perspective. They cannot win as easily by appealing to local special interests. At least, that's theoretically how it works when there's a reasonable level of voter turnout. Some current councillors won with only 1,000 votes or so -- no wonder they have a narrow focus.

In practical terms if you want the stadium issue to live people need to keep talking about it and some councillor needs to immediately put forward a motion to keep on with site selection and planning if and when the FIFA Women's Cup bid dies. Some substantial budget and activity level is probably key because studies are easily shelved.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

New stadiums being built in Ottawa and Hamilton will only seat about 25k, as does Molson Stadium in Montreal.

All 3 of those stadia are really pushing the lower limits of what the league will tolerate, but are in established CFL markets. The Rough Riders date back to 1876, so Ottawa's absence is more an aberration than normal circumstance. Halifax is not only an untested pro football market, but it's almost half the size of Hamilton.

Halifax's proposal is for 14,000 permanent seats and 1 concourse. That's not going to fly with the CFL at all. If Halifax is serious about having a permanent tenant in its new stadium, shouldn't Halifax be trying to wow the CFL with a stadium the CFL would be proud to play in?

Winnipeg's got it right, Halifax should be trying to get as close to that as it can. If you can't consistently sell out a 25,000 seater, you're not big enough for the CFL.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Welkin

There is not a team in the CFL that could afford a new stadium on their own without the millions in financial subsidies from local taxpayers.

It's the same story for every league worldwide. Due diligence shows that spending $300 million+ on a sports stadium just doesn't make sense for pro sports franchises. Even NFL teams look to their municipal and state governments to fund stadium construction. It's always about convincing governments of the intangible benefits of having these teams based in their city.

[Welkin]

"The city has committed to contributing $20 million toward a proposed $71-million facility. Kelly said the facility’s construction would bring another $94 million in economic benefit to the region and create up to 550 jobs."

That little dink of a stadium was expected to cost $71 million? You have to be kidding me. Are they getting the bid from somebody's brother?

[(CFL) THE 13TH MAN]

Talking to people in NS and someone that attended all the public consultation
stadium sessions, virtually no one wants a 10 to 14 thousand bare boned permanent seat stadium built and 100`s of people he talked to in Halifax as well does not want this embarrassing steering committee`s recommendation stadium model, built period and Mayor Kelly knows it! It`s only common sense, it`s an outdoor stadium in a city that is on it`s way to a half of million people and that already has an indoor Metro Centre that was built 30 years ago that holds 11,500 with skyboxes, VIP lounges, restaurtants, etc. all the amenities which you have to have in a indoor or outdoor facility today. So anyone in Halifax thinking smaller than 25 to 30 permanent seats with all the amenities is totally insane and are not tuned in to reality.

Premier Dexter, better step -up because in every case in Canada the provincial government in each major Canadian city, and HFX. is a major city, supported a major stadium project in the biggest way and if Dexter continues to refuse he will make history and he the first Premier not to support a major stadium and in this case in his own capital city!

[cjones2451]

I know Fenwick has referred to Infocision Stadium in Akron Many times, but when you look at what they got for about $61M US, it makes me wonder WTF is up with this proposal? Why is there such a price discrepency?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoCis...93_Summa_Field

Even if there are bigger costs for land aquisition and site clean up, I don't know how you get half this stadium for $10M more??????

[Welkin]

[QUOTE=isaidso;5566216]It's the same story for every league worldwide. Due diligence shows that spending $300 million+ on a sports stadium just doesn't make sense for pro sports franchises. Even NFL teams look to their municipal and state governments to fund stadium construction. It's always about convincing governments of the intangible benefits of having these teams based in their city.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it is amazing the scams these NFL BILLIONAIRES pull over local communities in order to get them to build lavish stadiums. My hat is off to New England, Carolina, the Leafs and any other NFL/NHL team that built their own stadiums/arenas instead of asking for a handout. The city councils in some of these towns must be either dumb as bricks (or paid off under the table) with the stadium deals they have made. Poor Cincinnati/Hamilton County OH had to sell their hospitals in order to avoid bankruptcy when their stadium give-a-way turned to sh*t. There is a great website out there that tracks all the stadium/arena deals in Canada and the U.S.. Its www.fieldofschemes.com

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by someone123

Plenty of US cities have bombed-out inner cities and gold plated sports venues. Vancouver's not far off from that model -- a few blocks away from BC Place is one of the worst neighbourhoods in North America.

And a few blocks away in the opposite direction is some of the most expensive and highly-coveted residential real estate in the country.

To suggest any part of Vancouver is 'bombed out' is ridiculous. Even the Downtown Eastside is an active and highly populated neighborhood even if its residents are poor. 'Bombed out' would suggest something like downtown Cleveland or Detroit where the urban core has been literally abandoned en-masse - no part of downtown Vancouver comes even close to fitting that description.

[D-dog]

71 million....WTF

Here is the high school stadium where i live and they build this for 18 million and it includes a video replay board

http://www.kaharchitects.com/project...adium-complex/

Maybe they should call these guys to build the stadium. Imagine what they could do for 71 million

[someone123]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

And a few blocks away in the opposite direction is some of the most expensive and highly-coveted residential real estate in the country.

This is completely consistent with my previous point. Vancouver is a highly socially stratified city with a struggling underclass. And now it has a nice new stadium that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. My intention was not to make Vancouver sound like Buffalo or Detroit. It is closer to San Francisco or Seattle, which have expensive areas and areas like the Tenderloin or Belltown (which doesn't seem quite so bad to me). I like to point out these similarities because Canadians often buy into a weird form of exceptionalism and refuse to acknowledge the many flaws shared with or inherited from the US.

Halifax will deal with the same issues as it grows in the future. So far its leaders have not made very good decisions. I could easily see council flip-flopping when the next big thing comes along and blowing a couple hundred million to put some shiny new sports infrastructure out in Burnside.

To suggest any part of Vancouver is 'bombed out' is ridiculous. Even the Downtown Eastside is an active and highly populated neighborhood even if its residents are poor.

Okay, so those SRO hotels merely look abandoned, and above the faded, caged-in storefronts live an assortment of crack and heroin addicts.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by D-dog

71 million....WTF

Here is the high school stadium where i live and they build this for 18 million and it includes a video replay board

http://www.kaharchitects.com/project...adium-complex/

Maybe they should call these guys to build the stadium. Imagine what they could do for 71 million

That is a very nice looking stadium for $18 million. Maybe they should have helped out out the people in Allen, Texas who spent $60 MILLION on their HIGH SCHOOL football stadium.
http://highschoolsportsblog.dallasne...ndication.html

[D-dog]

Originally Posted by Welkin

That is a very nice looking stadium for $18 million. Maybe they should have helped out out the people in Allen, Texas who spent $60 MILLION on their HIGH SCHOOL football stadium.
http://highschoolsportsblog.dallasne...ndication.html

Wow....And it will only be the 3rd largest High school stadium in the state. That school currently has a 7k stadium and uses and additional 7k temp seats each game. They had 50k to see a game last year in the new Cowboys stadium..... Welcome to Texas!