CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[Nowhereman1280]

DIA is not so beautiful when you are trapped in it for 3 days...

[honte]

^ Yeah, I miss the old O'Hare buildings. By the way, those were a CF Murphy job, although most of the people working at Murphy had jumped ship from SOM anyway.

I think Midway serves its purpose, but from a design standpoint, it is a missed opportunity. I am hoping we see much better from the O'Hare expansion.

[VivaLFuego]

Oh my mistake, you're right about CF Murphy on that one. I really enjoyed that aesthetic, though they were looking decidedly aged and dusty by the time renovation started. Similar issue to the downtown subway stations, where the aesthetic is actually solid and attractive but the ravages of decades of sub-par maintenance hide the potential under a layer of grime. End result being the notion of "preservation", which in these instances would probably be the cheaper option consisting mostly of cleanup(<-- key point), is laughed off because "why would you want to save these crummy things?" At least the replacement finishes at O'hare have been pretty tasteful, and maintain a certain sense of updated Modernism.

And Jahn's United Terminal really doesn't need too much comment though Goldberger's NYT commentary is decent:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

[intrepidDesign]

So the new express lines that are running from O'Hare to B37, they are using the existing blue lines? Are they adding any? Is that why northbound on the Kennedy is down to one lane every night? What about Midway, are they building express lines there as well? This seems like a pretty important project, but there seems to be little information about it.

[VivaLFuego]

Originally Posted by intrepidDesign

So the new express lines that are running from O'Hare to B37, they are using the existing blue lines? Are they adding any? Is that why northbound on the Kennedy is down to one lane every night? What about Midway, are they building express lines there as well? This seems like a pretty important project, but there seems to be little information about it.

1. Lane closures on the Kennedy are for tie-replacement on the existing tracks to a. remove slow zones and b. upgrade the speed limit to 70mph

2. There are no construction plans currently for any bypass express tracks. There are several concepts for how and where to locate them but nothing is anywhere near being funded, since even the cheapest option is well over $500 million.

[the urban politician]

I'd like to ask a broader question:

Given the global crisis with airlines, escalating fuel prices in the setting of limited fuel reserves, and rising costs of air travel, is the OHare expansion really going to be a good long term investment?

I know for now there are projected increases in air travel over the next 20 years, but did those studies even take into account the lack of available energy sources to fuel such increases? Did anybody (other than a few peak oil "elitists") really consider the impact of this real global problem?

Getting back to the OHare expansion project, I'm seriously wondering if OHare is at or near its peak traffic loads, and that we will begin to see a long, slow decline as we did with passenger train travel 50 years ago.

Perhaps $15 billion (or whatever the new price tag is) is far better spent on expanding & upgrading the area's rail system..

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

I'd like to ask a broader question:

Given the global crisis with airlines, escalating fuel prices in the setting of limited fuel reserves, and rising costs of air travel, is the OHare expansion really going to be a good long term investment?

I know for now there are projected increases in air travel over the next 20 years, but did those studies even take into account the lack of available energy sources to fuel such increases? Did anybody (other than a few peak oil "elitists") really consider the impact of this real global problem?

Getting back to the OHare expansion project, I'm seriously wondering if OHare is at or near its peak traffic loads, and that we will begin to see a long, slow decline as we did with passenger train travel 50 years ago.

Perhaps $15 billion (or whatever the new price tag is) is far better spent on expanding & upgrading the area's rail system..

^ Hate to quote myself, but case in point:

Traffic slows at O'Hare
By: Paul Merrion and John Pletz April 27, 2008
Traffic is declining at O'Hare International Airport just as the city of Chicago presses cash-strapped airlines to fund the second phase of the airport's expansion.

[VivaLFuego]

^imho about 75% of the expansion project is needed regardless, even if growth in air travel slows down (long term, I don't think it will, but the next few years could certainly be a hiccup). O'hare's old runway configuration is very inefficient and is a major factor in how delayed the airport is. Even if traffic stagnates, it would still be worth major investment, for the national air system to add new parallel runways and extend others to make overall operations more efficient and reliable.

Less concerned about a western terminal or western access road, which are major cost components.

[nomarandlee]

I agree Viva, and though I know we would like rail to get its due (especially TUP) I don't see rail ever seriously supplanting air travel in the future for anything over a few hundred miles. Unless we start building mag-lev's or super high trains interconnecting all over this country I don't see it happening (and think many would still prefer air travel). It simply is not as efficant as airplanes for long range travel for many people.

I could foresee airlines in the future though changing tactics to deal with any long term fuel surges. I could foresee larger planes with less frequency on lighter planes to make cost more efficient. These airlines will make adjustments to deal such factors and they will still thrive because there is sipmly the demand and air travel best meets that demand.

[Rail Claimore]

The runway reconfiguration and world gateway program (rennovating the existing terminals) are the key components of O'Hare modernization. The Western Terminal phase along with associated transportation infrastructure is something that can be built in the future to respond to demand as needed.

Keep in mind that the current minor decrease in air traffic is to be expected, not just due to rising operational costs for airlines, but because so much of O'Hare is a construction zone. United and American are rerouting flights to other hubs thanks to the flight caps and to speed their operations anyway. I'd expect to see the numbers pick back up next year, the first full year the new north runway will see operations. A similar thing happened with Atlanta last year, as they saw a record number of operations as a result of decreased congestion thanks to their fifth runway.

[Chicago2020]

The expansion is needed for the long term

[jpIllInoIs]

Well this thread has been quiet for awhile. Might be a good time to ask...
What is the time frame-if any- for extending the people mover to the parking lots across Rt.45/Mannhiem Rd, closer to the Metra/O'Hare stop?

[the urban politician]

^ When the NIMBY suburbs inevitably lose this drawn-out battle, they will finally realize what total morons they were.

Then spent huge sums of money on litigation for NOTHING. They still lose their homes, they still lose their cemetary, they still have to move....all at a higher financial cost than if they had just gone along with OHare's expansion to begin with.

Brilliant

[jpIllInoIs]

^ There are only 2 nimby suburbs; Elk Grove Village and Bensenville. All other surrounding suburbs back the expansion. If the voters in Elk Grove Village were made aware of the money that Mayor Johnson has wasted on the futile effort to block O'Hare they might throw him out of office. Johnson should be more concerned with keeping EGV competitive in the "supply chain-warehousing" industries. Many businesses are leaving for lower costs and newer facilities in Carol Stream and Bolingbrook. In the long term I don't see how he is acting in the best interest of his village, when he is trying to neutralize the biggest economic engine in the region, that is O'Hare.

[nomarandlee]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel...,6048116.story

O'Hare hourly flight caps to be lifted in October, FAA says

By Jon Hilkevitch | Tribune reporter
12:24 PM CDT, June 16, 2008


The Federal Aviation Administration announced Monday that it will lift the hourly restrictions on arrivals at O'Hare International Airport at the end of October as scheduled.

The lifting of the flight caps had been in doubt because of serious flight delays at O'Hare.

But the downturn in the airline industry—a double-digit reduction in flights—clearly made the FAA decision on lifting the flight caps easier.

The lifting of the caps at O'Hare will allow four to five additional arrivals each hour, or about 70 a day, FAA acting Administrator Bobby Sturgell said at a news conference................

..

[Marcu]

Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs

^ There are only 2 nimby suburbs; Elk Grove Village and Bensenville. All other surrounding suburbs back the expansion. If the voters in Elk Grove Village were made aware of the money that Mayor Johnson has wasted on the futile effort to block O'Hare they might throw him out of office. Johnson should be more concerned with keeping EGV competitive in the "supply chain-warehousing" industries. Many businesses are leaving for lower costs and newer facilities in Carol Stream and Bolingbrook. In the long term I don't see how he is acting in the best interest of his village, when he is trying to neutralize the biggest economic engine in the region, that is O'Hare.

He is, however, doing a great service to the legal industry. Most of its beneficiaries live outside Elk Grove Village and disproportionately in Chicago proper.

[Hot Rod]

great news on the lifting of flight caps

hopefully with the completion(s) of the runways, we can get rid of all of the slots and caps and Chicago can once again blossom!

[ardecila]

While I'm all for Chicago having an efficient, premier airport, is the MASSIVE expenditure on expansion really worth it?

With air travel's future looking bleak, there may be little need for additional capacity beyond the substantial capacity that O'Hare already offers.

Plus, much of the O'Hare expansion is being financed through ticket taxes and through contributions from the airlines. With declining traffic, the number of tickets sold will decline and the airlines won't be very generous - they can't afford to be. In the current state that the air travel industry is in right now, can Chicago afford to complete the expansion plans?

[VivaLFuego]

To complete them? Probably not.

The runway reconfiguration is worth doing to reduce delays and increase the thoroughput of takeoffs/departures, particularly in inclement weather. The current configuration of three crisscrossing pairs of parallel runways gives great crosswind flexibility but not much else because of how many conflicting movements there are.

You're right that the new terminals are probably not high priorities, but I think the runways certainly are, and those are probably over half the project cost anyway.

[ardecila]

I think that was the intent all along. The City wowed everybody with promises of a western access road, a circumferential road, new rail access, shiny new terminals, etc. But the core of the plan is the airfield reconfiguration. The new terminals and ground transportation has always been used as a sort of carrot-on-a-stick, but I seriously doubt the city will pursue those once the runway improvements are done... you can definitely see this, if you read between the lines on the website.

But that still doesn't change the fact that much of the OMP is funded by airlines that have no cash to spare. Will those airlines, and the city, simply settle for the smaller benefits that Phase I will provide (9L-27R, 10L-28R extension, 10C-28C), without continuing on to Phase II?