Canadian Airport Thread II

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Alaska is adding YYZ-SEA in mid-May

AS972 SEA 07:05 - 14:20 YYZ D 739
AS973 YYZ 15:40 - 18:00 SEA D 739

Lot's of new adds for US carriers into Canada this summer.

I'll go one step further. Lots of new adds (or resumptions) for foreign carriers into Canada, especially YYZ/YUL in 2023/2024.

YYZ
Saudia
Arajet
Sun Country
ITA Airways
Swiss
Alaska

YUL
Emirates
Arajet
Sun Country
Avianca
UA mainline

YVR
Lost SQ, but gained Zipair

YYC
Condor

YOW
Air France

YHZ
Icelandair
Delta Express
United Express

Have I missed any? Honorable mention to YQB (Air France), YVR (Jetblue) and YYZ (Royal Jordanian), but those happened in 2022.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

I'll go one step further. Lots of new adds (or resumptions) for foreign carriers into Canada, especially YYZ/YUL in 2023/2024.

YYZ
Saudia
Arajet
Sun Country
ITA Airways
Swiss
Alaska

YUL
Emirates
Arajet
Sun Country
Avianca
UA mainline

YVR
Lost SQ, but gained Zipair

YYC
Condor

YOW
Air France

YHZ
Icelandair
Delta Express
United Express

Have I missed any? Honorable mention to YQB (Air France), YVR (Jetblue) and YYZ (Royal Jordanian), but those happened in 2022.

It’s YEG that gained Condor while YYC gained Discover in 2022, along with YHZ. I’m pretty sure Condor was at YYC pre-pandemic. YXY have lost Condor for probably 3 summers while the main of their two parallel runways gets rebuilt.

While WS and not a foreign carrier, YHZ & YYT both are getting back WS transatlantic in 2024.

Here’s another one for 2023: Play at YHM.

Also, AS just recently resumed YLW.

[zahav]

I believe Alaska served YYZ briefly in the early 90s, but probably too long ago and obscure for the industry to consider it a service "resumption", it's being called a new service. Either way, I always wondered why AS didn't enter the YYZ market sooner, it was so dominated by AC, even DL never attempted it when they were building up SEA. Should see good traffic, as Alaska has very strong brand loyalty in the Pacific North West (WA, OR, AK, etc.), so they don't need to rely on the YYZ locals as much (the ones who likely stick to AC). Rather than detract from AC's service, it could add a lot of new passengers who otherwise might not have had YYZ on their radar.

UA adding YVR-IAD is kind of weird, Air Canada just added their own service. One has to assume given how closely they operate that this UA addition is based on solid demand between the two, and not some knock out punch to get AC out (like WS/Flair/Lynx seem to be doing to each other). I knew Washington DC was underserved from Western Canada, but there is a lot of capacity adds between YVR and YYC now, I hope the markets can absorb it.

[thenoflyzone]

The AS press release mentioned they flew LAX-YYZ in the early 90s. Apparently they got their asses handed to them by AC on the route.

They’re a far larger airline now, with a proper hub in SEA. Not to mention the partnership with PD, should all make this a successful route. It will be far more difficult for AC to bully them around this time. Anyway, the market is definitely large enough to support 2 carriers.

[nname]

AS used to have over half of the market share for YVR-LAX with 6-7 daily flights, then AC bullied them out of the market by dumping seats with 5 daily Rouge 767. That was the time you can buy YVR-LAX ticket cheaper than what Flair is charging right now... carry-on included!

I guess AC have less tool to use now after the 767 retirement. Let's see if AC will do something about this...

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

The AS press release mentioned they flew LAX-YYZ in the early 90s. Apparently they got their asses handed to them by AC on the route.

They’re a far larger airline now, with a proper hub in SEA. Not to mention the partnership with PD, should all make this a successful route. It will be far more difficult for AC to bully them around this time. Anyway, the market is definitely large enough to support 2 carriers.

Yeah they sure did. They didn't use the right aircraft for the route - MD83s. In that era, they should have used 727s - unless AS' weren't ADV -200 models.

I have an AS timetable from summer 1993 and LAX-YYZ twice daily is in there. Started sometime in 1991 and I think was gone by sometime in early 1994.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by nname

AS used to have over half of the market share for YVR-LAX with 6-7 daily flights, then AC bullied them out of the market by dumping seats with 5 daily Rouge 767. That was the time you can buy YVR-LAX ticket cheaper than what Flair is charging right now... carry-on included!

I guess AC have less tool to use now after the 767 retirement. Let's see if AC will do something about this...

I don't see AC doing anything, quite frankly. Their fleet is stretched thin as it is. They're not about to dump seats on YYZ-SEA. AC sends the A220 to SEA, 1x daily in winter, double daily in peak summer. I don't see them increasing frequency beyond that. Maybe an upgauge to the A320 or 737Max in peak summer, but that's about it. You're not going to see AC widebodies at SEA, like you do at LAX, that's for sure.

I think AS will be fine.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Yeah they sure did. They didn't use the right aircraft for the route - MD83s. In that era, they should have used 727s - unless AS' weren't ADV -200 models.

I have an AS timetable from summer 1993 and LAX-YYZ twice daily is in there. Started sometime in 1991 and I think was gone by sometime in early 1994.

The 727 wouldn't have saved them, not when AC was running 747s and 727s on the route, 4x daily + even back then.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

I don't see AC doing anything, quite frankly. Their fleet is stretched thin as it is. They're not about to dump seats on YYZ-SEA. AC sends the A220 to SEA, 1x daily in winter, double daily in peak summer. I don't see them increasing frequency beyond that. Maybe an upgauge to the A320 or 737Max in peak summer, but that's about it. You're not going to see AC widebodies at SEA, like you do at LAX, that's for sure.

I think AS will be fine.



The 727 wouldn't have saved them, not when AC was running 747s and 727s on the route, 4x daily + even back then.

Agreed. In the early 90s outside of Alaska, AS was still a pretty small mostly US west coast regional carrier. It's been a long time since I looked at that timetable, but as I recall they had around 16 flights a day out of LAX. In other words practically no connecting traffic.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Agreed. In the early 90s outside of Alaska, AS was still a pretty small mostly US west coast regional carrier. It's been a long time since I looked at that timetable, but as I recall they had around 16 flights a day out of LAX. In other words practically no connecting traffic.

Alaska was the dominant carrier in Seattle even back then. They were probably the most dominant US airline in Vancouver at the time. They even operated their own business lounge (Alaska Boardroom Lounge) at YVR. I think that closed around 2010 or so.

Back then they had a strong relationship (reciprocal loyalty program status etc., lounges etc.) with both Delta and American. LAX would have been used for connections onto both those airlines.

Well today, Delta is a competitor and American is a fellow Oneworld partner with Alaska. I don't know if the YYZ flight timing works for connections on to the European Oneworld airlines in YYZ or not.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by casper

Alaska was the dominant carrier in Seattle even back then. They were probably the most dominant US airline in Vancouver at the time. They even operated their own business lounge (Alaska Boardroom Lounge) at YVR. I think that closed around 2010 or so.

Back then they had a strong relationship (reciprocal loyalty program status etc., lounges etc.) with both Delta and American. LAX would have been used for connections onto both those airlines.

Well today, Delta is a competitor and American is a fellow Oneworld partner with Alaska. I don't know if the YYZ flight timing works for connections on to the European Oneworld airlines in YYZ or not.

Wasn't UA the largest American carrier at YVR in the early 90s? Even back then AS was probably #2.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Wasn't UA the largest American carrier at YVR in the early 90s? Even back then AS was probably #2.

By early 2000s, AS at YVR is much much bigger than UA ever was. I believe YVR was pretty much a focus city for AS, or at least very close to?

Looking at old timetable through web archive and various other sources, YVR had directly flight on AS to:
ANC, LAS, LAX, PSP, PHX, PDX, SAN, SEA, SFO

Notably, SEA was 11x daily, LAX was 7x daily, SFO 4x daily, PDX 3x daily.

And same plane one-stop flight (through SEA) to: EWR, SNA

Looks like AC now pretty much fully replaced AS for all the destinations..

Here is part of the AS route map for 2003:

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by casper

I don't know if the YYZ flight timing works for connections on to the European Oneworld airlines in YYZ or not.

It doesn't have to work. This flight will cater mostly to O&D traffic at Toronto. SEA-YYZ O&D was around 93,000 in 2018. That's a significant number. The market has surely matured since then, and is probably well above 6 figures by now.

PD partnership will round out demand to domestic destinations beyond YYZ. That's all AS really needs to make this route work.

[hollywoodcory]

WS opened YYC-ICN for reservation today. Was initially announced last month.

Currently scheduled May 17-October 25:
WS86 YYC 17:55-20:45+1 ICN 789 357
WS87 ICN 22:45-18:15 YYC 789 146

Timings are similar to when the initially announced NRT so be interesting to see if they get better slots later on to allow onward connections with KE.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

WS opened YYC-ICN for reservation today. Was initially announced last month.

Currently scheduled May 17-October 25:
WS86 YYC 17:55-20:45+1 ICN 789 357
WS87 ICN 22:45-18:15 YYC 789 146

Timings are similar to when the initially announced NRT so be interesting to see if they get better slots later on to allow onward connections with KE.

You'd think so as those times aren't great even at the YYC end for WS87.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

You'd think so as those times aren't great even at the YYC end for WS87.

It can rotate with LHR departing at 20:30. And can take a frame inbound from CDG/EDI or DUB. So it’s doable, but not ideal.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

It can rotate with LHR departing at 20:30. And can take a frame inbound from CDG/EDI or DUB. So it’s doable, but not ideal.

Yeah. I figured it was a necessary evil, with only 7 frames and all. They're definitely spreading themselves very thin next summer. Will be interesting to see how they handle IROPS.

[Dominion301]

In 2025 WS are taking on 5 new leased 7M8s on top of their existing firm orders: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...862722699.html

[thenoflyzone]

YLW surpassed their 2019 number in 2023 (by 605 passengers). Their pre-pandemic peak was in 2018, however, and they still haven't caught up to that yet.

2,032,624 +18.3%

https://ylw.kelowna.ca/business/facts-statistics

YYJ posted full year 2023 as well. They still have a ways to go to reach their 2019 number.

1,740,107 +16.8%

https://www.victoriaairport.com/wp-c...ctor_Stats.pdf

[Dominion301]

Bearskin are going to be ending service to Dryden, Kenora and Fort Frances leaving all three NW Ontario towns without scheduled air passenger service: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder- ... 20May%2011.

Over the last year, the three destinations saw an average of two passengers per flight, reflecting the drastic reduction in demand for air travel in the region overall.

Will be interesting to see whether Wasaya or North Star Air step in.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by nname

AS used to have over half of the market share for YVR-LAX with 6-7 daily flights, then AC bullied them out of the market by dumping seats with 5 daily Rouge 767. That was the time you can buy YVR-LAX ticket cheaper than what Flair is charging right now... carry-on included!

I guess AC have less tool to use now after the 767 retirement. Let's see if AC will do something about this...

Probably from the time Greg Saretsky was in charge at AS. Having come from Canadian he knew the YVR market, and of course he went on to helm WS.