Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[logan5]

Originally Posted by esquire

If it's really going to take 5+ years to demolish Skydome and build a new stadium, then I don't know how on earth Rogers could pull that off... playing in a temporary venue in Toronto for a year or two, but for five or more? How does that make any kind of sense? If they leave town for 5 years it will be like a whole new team coming to town.

The more I ponder it the more I think Rogers will build their stadium on the lakefront. The bonus is it lets the stadium drive a big and lucrative development play.

They can play at BC Place.

If the land doesn’t cost much, they can make billions of dollars off the sale of condos. At least enough to cover the cost of demo and a fantastic new stadium.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by logan5

They can play at BC Place.

If the land doesn’t cost much, they can make billions of dollars off the sale of condos. At least enough to cover the cost of demo and a fantastic new stadium.

In the Canadian Proposals Thread, WhipperSnapper alluded to something regarding Rogers possibly having to have a stadium at the current site to maintain their lease... no stadium, no lucrative redevelopment scheme. So it sounds like they may have to park the team somewhere else for a while.

I would be curious to know what the numbers look like on a temporary venue vs. moving the team to some other city. 5 years is a long time, you'd have to build a pretty damn good temporary venue. Or you'd basically be moving the team out on long term loan somewhere else. Montreal would probably be the most obvious venue but even for temporary use the Big O would probably require a lot of costly upgrades. Can BC Place still handle baseball post-renovation? Or would they just turn to the US? Unlike with football though, there aren't that many unused/underused major baseball facilities just sitting around...

[logan5]

I thought there was an issue with B.C. Place for baseball, but apparently not. The Diamondbacks brass was up here touring bc place, in case there was an issue with their stadium.

Good fan base here and the stadium is in way better shape than the big o.

[ericmacm]

The Blue Jays would most certainly need to move to another city in the meantime. I would consider Buffalo to be the most likely candidate, since they were already playing there for the 2020 season.

I don't see Montreal hosting the Blue Jays at the Olympique. The main issue with Montreal is that it will be one of the host venues for FIFA 2026, and therefore the Olympique will be undergoing significant renovations of its own in the near future, including a new retractable roof, full grass soccer pitch, and other QoL upgrades.

I don't see Vancouver hosting them at BC Place either. It's unclear if the modern version of BC Place allows for a proper baseball configuration. There was an article earlier this year about the UBC baseball team trying out a batting practice in BC Place, on the heels of the Diamondbacks checking out Vancouver as a backup host city. Apparently right field is way too short (at 275ft) and they couldn't raise the scoreboard high enough to avoid getting hit.

[TorontoDrew]

By the sounds of it is they would play during construction of a new park on the waterfront at the dome, or even in the dome as it's being dismantled.

[wave46]

There might actually be a bit of method to Rogers' madness.

The potential game plan:

1. Don't invest in the team itself, just keep pushing mediocrity for the short-term. This keeps the crowds away.
2. Claim that Skydome is too large/underused for what it is. Nobody likes going to an empty cavern.
3. Build a small temporary facility in Toronto (Port Lands? Somewhere else?) that will serve as home in the meantime. Size it for 20,000 fans at most - remember, the team isn't drawing like in 2015/2016 and won't as long as mediocrity lasts.
4. Knock over Skydome. Redevelop most profitable chunks of land. Build new smaller, "modern" stadium that is mostly paid for by the redevelopment.
5. Invest in team payroll. Make Toronto fans overpay for limited seats when team is good again.
6. Profit?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

There might actually be a bit of method to Rogers' madness.

The potential game plan:

1. Don't invest in the team itself, just keep pushing mediocrity for the short-term. This keeps the crowds away.
2. Claim that Skydome is too large/underused for what it is. Nobody likes going to an empty cavern.

They don't even need to do these two steps. It's widely accepted that SkyDome is outdated and in need of either massive renovations ($300M+ in one place i've read) or replacement entirely. They've been pushing the renovation narrative for a few years now to the extent that most of the public agrees that the facility isn't fit for MLB in the 2020s and beyond.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by JHikka

They don't even need to do these two steps. It's widely accepted that SkyDome is outdated and in need of either massive renovations ($300M+ in one place i've read) or replacement entirely. They've been pushing the renovation narrative for a few years now to the extent that most of the public agrees that the facility isn't fit for MLB in the 2020s and beyond.

And they own the team and building. They don't have to do some "Major League" movie plot where they have to drop attendance below some threshold allowing them to break a lease.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

And they own the team and building. They don't have to do some "Major League" movie plot where they have to drop attendance below some threshold allowing them to break a lease.

Do they own the land underneath? Or is that still federal government property?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

Do they own the land underneath? Or is that still federal government property?

It's provincial IIRC.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by wave46

Do they own the land underneath? Or is that still federal government property?

It's a land lease, Rogers paid $25 million for the building but the land is worth hundreds.

[Andy6]

Would the new lakefront stadium be covered? I can’t remember being colder in my life than sitting in the bleachers at Exhibition Stadium in April.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

They've been pushing the renovation narrative for a few years now to the extent that most of the public agrees that the facility isn't fit for MLB in the 2020s and beyond.

Is there any shred of substance to that beyond the complaint that it doesn't have a natural grass field? It feels like there is no longer a distinction made between not being the latest and greatest and being functionally inadequate.

I mean if Rogers wants to use their money to build a stadium and make more money then that's fine, that's their call. But there is no need for some kind of alibi where everyone has to pretend that the existing venue is broken beyond repair.

[suburbanite]

I would imagine it would be a modern retractable roof in either location, ala Minute-Maid park in Houston, Globe Life in Arlington, or T Mobile in Seattle. Although Minnesota plays in the uncovered Target Field in October so it's not a certainty.

Problem is they take up a massive amount of space. Here's the aerial in Seattle. It pretty much has the same footprint as the football stadium.



Something similar on the skydome site would seriously cut into the amount of developable land left over.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by esquire

Is there any shred of substance to that beyond the complaint that it doesn't have a natural grass field? It feels like there is no longer a distinction made between not being the latest and greatest and being functionally inadequate.

I mean if Rogers wants to use their money to build a stadium and make more money then that's fine, that's their call. But there is no need for some kind of alibi where everyone has to pretend that the existing venue is broken beyond repair.

I mean it's pretty objectively a terrible venue for baseball. Only the Rays and maybe Oakland are worse. It's over 30 years old at this point and you feel it when you're inside. Whether or not it's bad enough that it warrants public money is another discussion. One year though the dome is just not going to open.

I also remember when RA Dickey first came to the Jays and was struggling there were questions about whether being in a dome and not having airflow from center field was affecting the movement of his knuckle ball so there's that.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Is there any shred of substance to that beyond the complaint that it doesn't have a natural grass field? It feels like there is no longer a distinction made between not being the latest and greatest and being functionally inadequate.

I mean if Rogers wants to use their money to build a stadium and make more money then that's fine, that's their call. But there is no need for some kind of alibi where everyone has to pretend that the existing venue is broken beyond repair.

I think if they're going asking for money from government they have to make an 'obsolete' case, thin as it may be. If they even want government to agree to modifications of the land-use, they may have to play that up.

Not saying Rogers is right, but I could see why they're doing it.

That being said, if Rogers doesn't own the land the point is moot. I don't see why the government of Ontario would let such a prime piece of land finance someone else's stadium. Unless that's what Rogers is hoping the provincial contribution will be?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I mean it's pretty objectively a terrible venue for baseball.

How can this be? Everyone loved it, and I mean loved it, at first. Then it kind of fell out of fashion as smaller, more traditional baseball-specific stadiums with natural grass popped up. So now everyone hates it because it isn't like Globe Life Park, but nothing about Skydome itself has changed... it just isn't at the front of the pack anymore.

I always found this phenomenon interesting. It reminds me of the old days with the Winnipeg Jets 1.0. In 1987 nobody had a problem with attending games at Winnipeg Arena. But as the Jets ownership leaned on sportswriters to push the narrative that the old rink sucked, and barely 5 years later it was considered a well accepted fact that Winnipeg Arena was a miserable dump and it had to be replaced right away. There's probably a thesis waiting to be written about the opinion-shaping that takes places in those situations.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

That being said, if Rogers doesn't own the land the point is moot. I don't see why the government of Ontario would let such a prime piece of land finance someone else's stadium. Unless that's what Rogers is hoping the provincial contribution will be?

I was pretty shocked when Rogers got the dome for $25 million... I'd be even more shocked if they got another sweetheart deal. But I guess there's a precedent!

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

How can this be? Everyone loved it, and I mean loved it, at first. Then it kind of fell out of fashion as smaller, more traditional baseball-specific stadiums with natural grass popped up. So now everyone hates it because it isn't like Globe Life Park, but nothing about Skydome itself has changed... it just isn't at the front of the pack anymore.

I always found this phenomenon interesting. It reminds me of the old days with the Winnipeg Jets 1.0. In 1987 nobody had a problem with attending games at Winnipeg Arena. But as the Jets ownership leaned on sportswriters to push the narrative that the old rink sucked, and barely 5 years later it was considered a well accepted fact that Winnipeg Arena was a miserable dump and it had to be replaced right away. There's probably a thesis waiting to be written about the opinion-shaping that takes places in those situations.

The "Top X Arenas/Stadiums" of whatever sports play into it.

No matter how fantastic the venues are overall, somebody has to come in last.

It's not like the new venue has helped the Marlins much. I imagine it will sink down the list quite quickly.

Until a venue becomes classic, that is. Wrigley Field was probably viewed as 'outdated' in the multipurpose era - the logical thing at the time would have been to replace it. What a tragedy that would have been.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I was pretty shocked when Rogers got the dome for $25 million... I'd be even more shocked if they got another sweetheart deal. But I guess there's a precedent!

To be fair, that was from Labatt Breweries. The province sold it to them for $125m to be rid of the thing.