DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

Put down the zoning map and take a neighborhood tour.

I'm good. I live in Five Points and walk and bike through Whittier/Cole several times a week. It's overwhelmingly SFH and the current zoning is helping to keep it that way. Other neighborhoods equally close to downtown to the south, east, and west allow more flexibility. You're free to have your own opinion, but I think all central neighborhoods should be able to accomodate missing middle housing with few to no parking requirements. Go back a few pages in this thread and you'll see this is a conversation happening in cities all around the country.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by BG918

With 18th & Market, Block 162 and the Rockies West Lot all under construction what is the next downtown project you want to see break ground in 2019? I would say Tabor 2 because it adds an additional skyscraper but I have my doubts it will actually get off the ground.

I'm trying to think what else exciting has a good likelihood of breaking ground next year:
- 18th & Glenarm (32 & 38 story condos)
- The Hooper (9 story residential at 26th & Welton)
- 3463 Walnut (13 story residential in RiNo)
- One Platte (5 story office next to I-25 in LoHi)
- 18th & Champa (14 story hotel)
- T3 (7 story office at 35th & Blake)
- 26th & Alcott (15 story condos/apartments in Jeff Park)
- 14th & Wynkoop (8 story mixed-use in LoDo)
- 1460 Wewatta (12 story micro apartments near DUS)
- EVEN Hotel (8 story at Park & Blake)
- 16th & Market (10 story hotel in LoDo)
- ???

I personally would love to see the El Jebel Tower happen but there is limited evidence to suggest that will happen. I might be even more interested in seeing the Block 162 hotel go under construction before Tabor 2. The block 162 office and hotel combo would really add significant density to that part of downtown.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

OK, I guess. Except you said you can't build multi unit homes in those neighborhoods and that's clearly not true. You also noted that there are also many multi-unit homes in those neighborhoods already.

So what's the real complaint again? You want them to scrape some 100 year old Denver squares and put up some slot homes?

What's not old and being preserved is being developed as a multi-unit residence or as small multi-dewlling properties. just around the corner next to a bunch of housing projects some new $1.3 million dollar 1800 sq ft homes are selling. Garage apartments are being built as well. So these so called single units that are so troubling actually are squeezing in on small slots of land at modest sizes and come with a second home in the back.

Put down the zoning map and take a neighborhood tour.

1800 sq ft for $1.3M? In 5 points? Ouch, well I guess there really is a sucker born every minute.

[Loyoung]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No, no they do not, that is simply not true. At least, not in an exposed location, without a lot of incidental drainage and nearby irrigation generally increasing soil moisture like you get in a lot of subdivisions around town. On the actual plains (or adjacent to a highway, which is a tough environment to begin with), they grow terribly.

Well it depends on what species of tree you're talking about. Ponderosa Pine, commonly seen in the south metro would grow in median or areas between overpass and interchange. They are very adaptable, require little water and are highly drought resistant. While they can and will grow adequately, they are not the most attractive tree. Your assessment would be more in line with Colorado Spruce and Douglas Fir (which are much better looking), but would still grow.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by BG918

With 18th & Market, Block 162 and the Rockies West Lot all under construction what is the next downtown project you want to see break ground in 2019? I would say Tabor 2 because it adds an additional skyscraper but I have my doubts it will actually get off the ground.

I'm trying to think what else exciting has a good likelihood of breaking ground next year:
- 18th & Glenarm (32 & 38 story condos)
- The Hooper (9 story residential at 26th & Welton)
- 3463 Walnut (13 story residential in RiNo)
- One Platte (5 story office next to I-25 in LoHi)
- 18th & Champa (14 story hotel)
- T3 (7 story office at 35th & Blake)
- 26th & Alcott (15 story condos/apartments in Jeff Park)
- 14th & Wynkoop (8 story mixed-use in LoDo)
- 1460 Wewatta (12 story micro apartments near DUS)
- EVEN Hotel (8 story at Park & Blake)
- 16th & Market (10 story hotel in LoDo)
- ???

Building permit applications have been submitted for 26th and Welton, 3463 Walnut, and the 16th and Market hotel. So, I would expect those to be built first.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

That Cole and Whittier are still 90% SFH is a problem, that’s a worse ratio than Stapleton. Realistically, these neighborhoods should be 75% or so SFH at this point.

Where did you come up with this arbitrary timetable of what Whittier should already look like? You're not getting spooked by all those 'end of times' stories are you?

The idea of "middle housing" is growing on me; I've always enjoyed variety to spice up my life. But unless bulldurhamer is just making up what he describes then it sounds as though progress is being made.

[CherryCreek]

Well, Denver missed out on the much lower profile (as compared to Amazon), Apple expansion to new cities, with Austin the big winner.

Still, it sounds like there could be significant new jobs in Boulder area.

https://kdvr.com/2018/12/13/apple-to...-next-3-years/

Although hitting a grand slam with an Apple or Amazon grabs headlines, I think we will do fine with hitting lots of singles and doubles with significant offices for a wide, diverse group of tech companies, as Denver has been doing recently (Slack, Facebook, etc.). Hate to have too many eggs in one basket. Even the mighty Apple and Amazon may some day suffer significant set backs.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No, no they do not, that is simply not true. At least, not in an exposed location, without a lot of incidental drainage and nearby irrigation generally increasing soil moisture like you get in a lot of subdivisions around town. On the actual plains (or adjacent to a highway, which is a tough environment to begin with), they grow terribly.

Well, whatever. I have one that has grown fast without irrigation, and I see them along I25 in areas. I suppose we can just stick with garbage and weeds along our freeways.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Where did you come up with this arbitrary timetable of what Whittier should already look like? You're not getting spooked by all those 'end of times' stories are you?

The idea of "middle housing" is growing on me; I've always enjoyed variety to spice up my life. But unless bulldurhamer is just making up what he describes then it sounds as though progress is being made.

The same place as you: the technical acumen of "my ass".

Progress at densification being made, but at a glacially slow place and this doesn't refute the fact that Cole, Whittier, City Park, Baker, Wash Park (gasp!) etc. should max out at single family zoning. If Stapleton has a denser theoretical zoning than these areas this is simply wrong.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

Well, whatever. I have one that has grown fast without irrigation, and I see them along I25 in areas. I suppose we can just stick with garbage and weeds along our freeways.

I think that we just throw up some tiny housing and creating affordable housing for the homeless in the ROW's.

[CherryCreek]

I saw this on 9 news site.

https://www.9news.com/article/news/l...0-83802232b445


Wow. Just wow.



I'd love it if the new owner built similarly sized slot homes to the property line. Slot home hell.

LoL.

https://youtu.be/W-19_6OfM2s

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

I saw this on 9 news site.

https://www.9news.com/article/news/l...0-83802232b445

Wow. Just wow.

Totally hilarious. Great find.

Fine examples of everybody's beloved missing middle.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

I saw this on 9 news site.

Man is going to get paid if he gets his $1.1M. Be interesting to see which of those slot development on either side ends up getting screwed.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Totally hilarious. Great find.

Fine examples of everybody's beloved missing middle.

Sure. Though either of those slothomes are now illegal under Denver zoning, but is that single family home on Tennyson street really the best use of that site? Does that house make the city better than what is going to replace it?

I'd go with a three-story with some condos and ground floor retail to keep on having the Tennyson retail corridor move northward. That would be a far more interesting use of the parcel.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Man is going to get paid if he gets his $1.1M. Be interesting to see which of those slot development on either side ends up getting screwed.

If you can't put in slot homes because of zoning change, WHAT do you DO with that site? LoL

Now a horrible site for SFH, or Duplex. A slot home is about the only thing that would work there, and it wouldn't be pretty.

A block away you have the same situation:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/44...4d-105.0437096

[TakeFive]

Sightseeing for sites

I drug my beloved ole bike out of the basement, pumped up the tires and rode around various Denver neighborhoods.
Then I woke up and since I don't like contending with traffic on a bike I deferred to my Google Street View function.

I skipped Whittier which I'm only vaguely familiar with and since bulldurhamer provided a nice updated view I focused on slices of Curtis Park, City Park West, Uptown and Wash Park West.

In these areas there's plenty of SFH as well as a mish-mash of older but not 'historical' multiplex properties, presumably affordable. There's a number of one-off projects often commercial. City Park West has long had a number of nice older homes converted to office use which I've always liked. It's not difficult to find blocks or half blocks or partial blocks that could benefit from a makeover.

Side Note
Currently under construction is a 10-story apartment at 17th and Pearl, an 8-story apartment between Marion and Lafayette Streets but bordering Park Ave more density makes sense. Just west of City Park is the recently completed 5-story The York apartments.

Are you wanting to increase or limit density?
or do you just have an insatiable appetite for mid-market housing because in many cases I could see developers preferring to build a 5 to 8-story project. I can appreciate the variety of mid-market housing and these areas don't lack for variety anyway. But by limiting density you're not attacking the overall demand-supply curve, you're merely feeding a fetish.

Conclusion:
Despite the fun of simplicity I still don't like the 'one size fits all' solution when in some cases you'd be limiting sites much better suited for 5 or 8 to 10-story projects. I did find blocks of say three houses in a row or whole half-block where mid-market housing would be an ideal replacement.

Take Wash Park West - not aware of the zoning but I could see stepped-up zoning from the park westward as the best plan. With respect to Wash Park certainly south of Virginia I don't see much political will for change.

Am I complicating things? Yup, don't care.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Progress at densification being made, but at a glacially slow place and this doesn't refute the fact that Cole, Whittier, City Park, Baker, Wash Park (gasp!) etc. should max out at single family zoning. If Stapleton has a denser theoretical zoning than these areas this is simply wrong.

Speaking of Stapleton does anyone know when the big mixed-use Development is slated to begin in the lots south of Central Park Station? Perfect spot for high density development on the scale of Union Station, hope it gets done right. Same for the two empty corners at MLK & Central Park Blvd. Unfortunately new development in Northfield has been a disaster from an urban planning standpoint so hopefully they don’t follow that model.

Denver needs to increase residential density in Stapleton since we can’t do that in our other urban ‘hoods. And really if you work downtown Stapleton is almost better from an access standpoint with the A Line and MLK bus service.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

If you can't put in slot homes because of zoning change, WHAT do you DO with that site? LoL

Now a horrible site for SFH, or Duplex. A slot home is about the only thing that would work there, and it wouldn't be pretty.

A block away you have the same situation:

I recommend Tiny houses.


Credit: People Powered Press

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

If you can't put in slot homes because of zoning change, WHAT do you DO with that site? LoL

Now a horrible site for SFH, or Duplex. A slot home is about the only thing that would work there, and it wouldn't be pretty.

Yeah, it's going to be interesting. Maybe some retail with office/muti-unit above? It's on Tennyson after all.

I'm interested to see what developers do come up with.

[corey]

I really don’t mind slot homes if it means that $300,000-$400,000 condos are produced. I don’t know what prices they actually bring. I think it was a mistake to completely ban them. I find them to be very urban and they actually remind me of some of the housing I’ve seen in Japan. A problem with entry level condos and houses though is that wealthy people buy them up for rental properties. One thing I’ve noticed about desert cities like Phoenix, Albuquerque, and Phoenix is that they have interesting, even artistic, low maintenance, and mostly hardscape (rocks, concrete, sculptures) highway landscaping. I think Denver could get some great ideas from these cities.