Halifax Stadium Discussion

[JET]

this would be right beside the highway, and the quarry is a hiilside, sort of an amphitheatre. interesting

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

I went to school at Shannon Park in the mid 80's, it was a dilapidated hole then and an even bigger mould filled shit hole now, TEAR IT DOWN... It is not a healthy enviroment, health or mentaly and would certainly be better off replced by new development . The whole area is an eyesore and a stadium would be the first step to revitalizing a sad state of affairs.

I'll agree, I don't think that old school is any reason not to be looking at those lands. Here are a few CBC articles about the air quality.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/04/15/ns-shannon-park-school.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/03/30/ns-dartmouth-school-asbestos.html

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by planarchy

DCL has little interest is selling the Commodore site to the city...
Halifax looking at wrong site for stadium, Dartmouth Crossing owners say
December 8, 2011 - 6:55pm / Chronicle Herald

The owners of Dartmouth Crossing Ltd. want a new stadium built at a major intersection near the Empire Theatres complex and not at the Commodore Drive site favoured by the project’s advisory committee.

“We did not talk to the consultants about the site favoured by the advisory committee,” Ann-Louise McKinnon, general manager at Dartmouth Crossing, said Thursday.

McKinnon said it is the so-called quarry site, north of Wright Avenue and near the theatre complex and restaurant district, and not the Commodore Drive site favoured by the committee, that Dartmouth Crossing Ltd. prefers for a proposed new stadium.

“The quarry site is at a superior location, at a major intersection within Dartmouth Crossing and immediately adjacent to the Highway 118 intersection,” said McKinnon.

“It is fully serviced with sewer, water and vehicle access. It is the best location for handling large volumes of traffic for stadium events and more compatible with existing development than is the case with the Commodore Drive site.”

If there is a perceived problem with the quarry site, it is that it is quarry land that would require clearing if a stadium is constructed.

“Removing some rock is not a huge problem,” McKinnon said. “Much of Dartmouth Crossing was quarry land before it was developed.”

She said she did not want to speculate on the variance in values of the quarry site compared with the Commodore Drive location, which is level and clear and ready for development.

She said it would be up to officials with North American Development Group, the developers of Dartmouth Crossing, to determine any eventual selling price of either of the properties.

Glenn Munro, North American Development Group’s managing partner for Eastern Canada, said Thursday the group is working on some preliminary plans for commercial and retail development at the Commodore Drive site, and for that reason, it pitched the quarry location for a stadium to the consultants.

Provincial property records indicate the quarry site has an assessed value for tax purposes of about $4-million, about double the value of the assessed value of the Commodore Drive site, but Munro said it is too early to speculate on how much land would be required for a stadium if it is built or what the land would cost.

“This was a consultative process only and not a full-blown negotiation on a price.”

Halifax Regional Municipality was urged to proceed with a bid for a stadium, and to break ground at the Commodore site, located at the intersection of Commodore Drive and John Savage Avenue, in a report from the project’s advisory committee.

That recommendation was based on information provided in the $275,000 assessment of stadium options prepared for the city by Fowler, Bauld & Mitchell Ltd.

The Commodore site received top marks but was not put forward as a potential site for a stadium by the landowners, according to a Dec. 6 report presented by staff to regional council.

“The rating of that site reflects its desirable qualities and does not reflect any conversation (about the) desire of the landowner to participate,” said the report, available on the municipality’s website.

“It was considered as a result of its proximity to the existing municipal artificial turf facilities in that area.”

The municipality owns a big sports field and an adjacent Commodore Drive property.

A municipal analysis suggested capital costs of a stadium will begin at $55 million and will be affected by size and seating variations and location.

Four sites made it to the shortlist: Commodore Drive was first; Shannon Park second; Dartmouth Crossing quarry site third; and a Burnside Park location fourth.

Excellent.

This makes a short list even shorter. If the Commodore site isn't even being sold, then HRM needs to move on to the next: Shannon Park.

And it's comical to read Dartmouth Crossing Ltd. be so upfront about where they want the stadium. Well, let's hope they aren't too upset when their stadium isn't built anywhere in their tacky, waste of space, Bayer's Lake knock-off business park.

[WestEndHali]

Well said

[halifaxboyns]

Wow, see I was totally way off on my understanding of the stadium for DC. I thought the site near the movie theatres was where it was going to go, wow I really haven't been paying attention.

That being said - if the city really wants the site, they can always expropriate it? I don't think they could do that with federal land though...so they couldn't just take shannon park. Too bad though...

[Josh M]

Why does everyone hate Dartmouth crossing? I think it is a perfect place for a stadium and a great place to shop and eat. The environment there is much better than Bayers Lake and it has much more room than Shannon Park.

[WestEndHali]

Originally Posted by Josh M

Why does everyone hate Dartmouth crossing? I think it is a perfect place for a stadium and a great place to shop and eat. The environment there is much better than Bayers Lake and it has much more room than Shannon Park.

While I can't speak for everyone I can say that, for me, Dartmouth Crossing has everything I don't want surrounding a HRM stadium. I.e. uninspired box stores, chain restaurants and unaccommodating pedestrian areas. I'd say the same if they were proposing to build the stadium in Bayers Lake. Its not that these are bad places in general (I do quite a lot of shopping in both), but I don't think a stadium will work both economically or aesthetically within a suburban power centre.

Shannon Park is an opportune place to begin planning a community orientated centre with parks, intimate/original dining venues etc. We don't have to be pigeon holed into the same old, same old these power centres have to offer (or lack there of)

Just Saying...

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Josh M

Why does everyone hate Dartmouth crossing? I think it is a perfect place for a stadium and a great place to shop and eat. The environment there is much better than Bayers Lake and it has much more room than Shannon Park.

Better than Bayer's Lake? Why are you comparing business parks? You're missing the point: we do not want a community stadium in a buisness park. We want urban development. We want Shannon Park, at least.

Many people are fighting for the stadium to be built on the peninsula. Shannon Park, with its water front appeal, is a central, urban compromise.

You are invited to read the long history of dicussion regarding why everyone hates Dartmouth Crossing.

[JET]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Better than Bayer's Lake? Why are you comparing business parks? You're missing the point: we do not want a community stadium in a buisness park. We want urban development. We want Shannon Park, at least.

Many people are fighting for the stadium to be built on the peninsula. Shannon Park, with its water front appeal, is a central, urban compromise.

You are invited to read the long history of dicussion regarding why everyone hates Dartmouth Crossing.

Ryejay, take your own advice, read the posts, not everyone hates DC. There are some of us that like DC, might not be many, but there are some

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JET

Ryejay, take your own advice, read the posts, not everyone hates DC. There are some of us that like DC, might not be many, but there are some

Don't be so taken back from Josh M's way of putting it, which is the context of my response. I'm not interested in advocating a pro Dartmouth Crossing atmosphere, so quite complaining that there are so few of you. You'll have to deal with the random forum posts by non-regulars which come across as somewhat generalised as to what everyone is expressing.

Or perhaps more realistic: virtually everyone.

Let's take a moment on this point again: virtually everyone prefers Shannon Park to Dartmouth Crossing.

Be as pissy as you want.

[halifaxboyns]

I'm trying to take a balanced/realistic perspective on this.

While I stand with Ryejay on 'wanting' an urban stadium at Shannon Park (as part of a greater redevelopment of the area into a mixed use/transit oriented community - I am realistic when I see that Canada Lands (which owns Shannon Park) hasn't stepped up to offer the land. Knowing the incredible pace which the federal government works at; I am feeling quite doubtful that a stadium at shannon park could happen unless someone lights a fire under Canada Lands (or there has been backroom discussions which no one is aware of). I'll remain hopeful, but realistic.

So then that leaves the other options - which includes Dartmouth Crossing. I can see the negative of being in the midst of a bunch of big box retail and the surrounding development being totally uninspiring in terms of architecture, so how would that look on tv? Probably not that great, but living in Calgary the McMahon Stadium isn't all that great to look at either...

So I'm willing to live with Dartmouth Crossing if SP isn't a viable option. It's close to good road connections and transit service to the area can improve and would likely increase for events. That's my take on 'both sides of the coin'.

[hoser111]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Let's take a moment on this point again: virtually everyone prefers Shannon Park to Dartmouth Crossing.

When we take a poll on here(http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=193990), it would suggest otherwise. So it doesn't suit your argument, then dismiss it out of hand?

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'm trying to take a balanced/realistic perspective on this.

While I stand with Ryejay on 'wanting' an urban stadium at Shannon Park (as part of a greater redevelopment of the area into a mixed use/transit oriented community - I am realistic when I see that Canada Lands (which owns Shannon Park) hasn't stepped up to offer the land. Knowing the incredible pace which the federal government works at; I am feeling quite doubtful that a stadium at shannon park could happen unless someone lights a fire under Canada Lands (or there has been backroom discussions which no one is aware of). I'll remain hopeful, but realistic.

So then that leaves the other options - which includes Dartmouth Crossing. I can see the negative of being in the midst of a bunch of big box retail and the surrounding development being totally uninspiring in terms of architecture, so how would that look on tv? Probably not that great, but living in Calgary the McMahon Stadium isn't all that great to look at either...

So I'm willing to live with Dartmouth Crossing if SP isn't a viable option. It's close to good road connections and transit service to the area can improve and would likely increase for events. That's my take on 'both sides of the coin'.

Yes, your opinion is balanced and makes sense. It still, however, decides that building a stadium now is absolutely necessary. Though I understand your point of view, and I too want a stadium now, I disagree completely that a stadium in Dartmouth Crossing is a worthy investment. I would prefer to see HRM pass on FIFA if it came down to Dartmouth Crossing.

[beyeas]

In general, if this is going to be viable as a FIFA project, then the Harper government needs to get over its current dislike for funding a stadium.

They don't necessarily need to come out and say "yes we will fund 1/3", given that all this is a negotiation. To date, though, the only official response from the Harper government minister who actually has jurisdiction in this is a full out 100% we will not give money for a stadium. Would give me some reassurance that this is still a possible project if instead they would at least come out and say "we will take a look at this project".

As it stands right now it is quite clear that Harper does not want to get involved in providing money for a stadium. Hence my slight hope that they could get around the strict definition of that by doing a land swap with potential federal lands like Shannon... but barring that I don't see how we are ignoring Harper's very clear statement on non-funding for a stadium right now.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by hoser111

When we take a poll on here(http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=193990), it would suggest otherwise. So it doesn't suit your argument, then dismiss it out of hand?

Your point taken, the amount of people contributing to the discussion of location does not reflect this.

But you're right. The internet poll shows Dartmouth Crossing as the winner, from wherever these votes are coming. I'm waiting for more volume from this apparent pro Dartmouth Crossing side. Either the pro Shannon Park supporters are more likely to express their opinions outside of the effort needed to click a button in order to vote in an important internet poll--or some former Dartmouth Crossing supporters are persuaded by the arguments favouring Shannon Park.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by hoser111

When we take a poll on here(http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=193990), it would suggest otherwise. So it doesn't suit your argument, then dismiss it out of hand?

I think Rye is simply trying to argue his point.
There are some that are willing to accept DC simply because we see the reality of getting SP as something that will take time and likely cause us to miss the FIFA opportunity.

If Canada Lands had been on board from the start and was out there saying 'yeah we are totally on board' I suspect there would still be some for DC, but a greater slant to SP because we'd know for certain the land could be aquired. What I pointed out in my last posting was - that's a huge cloud for the SP site is getting the land. DC, clear skies.

If I had to vote, if everything was even, I'd go for SP in a heart beat. But I'll live with DC if we can't get the land at SP simply because I'd rather see the stadium built is an 'okay' spot rather than not at all. Actually, truth be told - if all things were even, I would've voted for a location not even in the running - the forum site that Fenwick suggested months ago.

[Josh M]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

You'll have to deal with the random forum posts by non-regulars which come across as somewhat generalised as to what everyone is expressing.

I've been posting in this thread years before you've been on this forum, just because I don't post as much as you doesn't mean I don't know whats going on.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Josh M

I've been posting in this thread years before you've been on this forum, just because I don't post as much as you doesn't mean I don't know whats going on.

Then it would I who doesn't know what's going on, given my ignorance to the duration since your registration on this forum--so you haven't the need to take any offence.

Your comment was, self-evidently, generalised. My apologies.

[JET]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Don't be so taken back from Josh M's way of putting it, which is the context of my response. I'm not interested in advocating a pro Dartmouth Crossing atmosphere, so quite complaining that there are so few of you. You'll have to deal with the random forum posts by non-regulars which come across as somewhat generalised as to what everyone is expressing.

Or perhaps more realistic: virtually everyone.

Let's take a moment on this point again: virtually everyone prefers Shannon Park to Dartmouth Crossing.

Be as pissy as you want.

Ryejay, your posts re confusing. You tell me: "Don't be so taken back from Josh M's way of putting it,"; when in fact I support what he said.
You tell me to 'quit complaining' when in fact all i did was disagree with you and point out that you are making inaccurate generalizations.
You tell me that I can be as pissy as I want to be, when it is you who are being sarcastic and dismissive.
What I was trying to communicate is that it is not only the ones who shout loudest or most frequently who have a valid point of view. With a discussion forum, everyone has a valid point of view, even those who are new, those who don't often post, those who only listen, or those who disagree. That is what you don't seem to understand.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JET

Ryejay, your posts re confusing. You tell me: "Don't be so taken back from Josh M's way of putting it,"; when in fact I support what he said.
You tell me to 'quit complaining' when in fact all i did was disagree with you and point out that you are making inaccurate generalizations.
You tell me that I can be as pissy as I want to be, when it is you who are being sarcastic and dismissive.
What I was trying to communicate is that it is not only the ones who shout loudest or most frequently who have a valid point of view. With a discussion forum, everyone has a valid point of view, even those who are new, those who don't often post, those who only listen, or those who disagree. That is what you don't seem to understand.

Josh M said: "Why does everyone hate Dartmouth Crossing?"

I then replied.
That's all I meant.

And I'm only slightly sarcastic...

And I think I understand the concept of everyone contributing to the forum, especially considering I've expressed my desire to see more of it. Participation in a discussion isn't just based on frequency per forum user, it is also quantity of users.