Western Expresso

[headhorse]

flip side - why do unions need employers

[dmacc]

^What?

[optimusREIM]

^^ yeah do explain

[bomberjet]

Employers can hire non-union people.

Unionized people can't work if they have no employer to go to.

[headhorse]

if you understand unions can organize a group of people to work together and have strong leadership - and according to some, a lot of power - then how can you not understand that these same people could simply organize themselves to do the tasks of an "employer"?

[dmacc]

They would then become the employer and would not be able to represent their members.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by headhorse

if you understand unions can organize a group of people to work together and have strong leadership - and according to some, a lot of power - then how can you not understand that these same people could simply organize themselves to do the tasks of an "employer"?

A lack of ambition.

Unions don't produce anything, their purpose is to only take.

[headhorse]

Originally Posted by dmacc

They would then become the employer and would not be able to represent their members.

you're so close

[headhorse]

Originally Posted by Riverman

A lack of ambition.

Unions don't produce anything, their purpose is to only take.

so trade workers just take things? and the investors in Florida are the ones "producing"? what kind of clown world do you live in?

[dmacc]

A union cannot organize that way, it would result in a conflict of interest.

If a Union let's say representing snow removal employees decided it felt it could provide the service better with it's members. It would in turn need to hire it's members which would make them the employer. Now how is a union going to represent it's members in good faith while also bargaining against them?

Unionized employees pay a Union for the service of representing them to their employer. It is not possible for them to do both. Many MGEU employee's are represented by outside unions but cannot be represented by their own union.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by headhorse

so trade workers just take things? and the investors in Florida are the ones "producing"? what kind of clown world do you live in?

Food for thought!

[ywgwalk]

Workers Co-op, like http://naturalcycle.ca/

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by headhorse

so trade workers just take things? and the investors in Florida are the ones "producing"? what kind of clown world do you live in?

No the workers are fine. Unions are a preditory animal, they exist to take. From companies and the workers they represent.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Riverman

No the workers are fine. Unions are a preditory animal, they exist to take. From companies and the workers they represent.

That is quite a simple-minded view of unions. Unions also exist to give workers a voice against enormous amounts of capital, and also things like the 40 hour work week, health and safety, and pensions the rest of us non-unionized folks often take for granted. The decline in union membership is directly proportional to the decline of the middle class (i.e. stagnant real incomes) in the past 40 years as well. I will never get how people can hate unions so much when corporations are directly responsible for the deaths of literally millions of humans over history and the decimation of our environment and climate (if only there were "unions" for these). One can always tell when one is either a sociopath or just plain unintelligent with comments such as yours.

[Riverman]

Great comeback. Attack the messenger instead of the message.

Unions are all but disappearing in the private sector. Large scale manufacturing is moving to right-to-work states in the USA or to Mexico. The only growth area for unions is in the public sector because of the weak and compliant source of their income - the taxpayer.

How long do you think this will last? How long until overly inflated wages and benefits eat up the entire budget of local goverments? Lots of talk here on how police and fire are now 55% of Winnipeg's budget. How much is too much? 70%? 90%?. Where does it stop?

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Great comeback. Attack the messenger instead of the message.

Unions are all but disappearing in the private sector. Large scale manufacturing is moving to right-to-work states in the USA or to Mexico. The only growth area for unions is in the public sector because of the weak and compliant source of their income - the taxpayer.

How long do you think this will last? How long until overly inflated wages and benefits eat up the entire budget of local goverments? Lots of talk here on how police and fire are now 55% of Winnipeg's budget. How much is too much? 70%? 90%?. Where does it stop?

Unions and labor is not the problem. It’s the enormous cuts to taxes that started 40 years ago that has suffocated public coffers. These cuts in taxes and regulations and legislation such as right-to-work are what have caused real incomes to stay flat since the late 70s and more wealth to be concentrated at the top. Not saying unions are the answer but they are part of it. The question should be why is the middle class not growing (despite a rising GDP) - and not how can we slow it down even further.

[Hecate]

The middle class isn’t growing because everyone is being taxed to death paying for public service employees. Tax upon tax and fee after fee. Almost a quarter of Manitoba’s workforce works for the government. It’s not sustainable. The poor are the hardest hit with highest proportion of their income going to fund overpaid unionized government employees. Just do a comparison of wages for police, fire, teachers, between Manitoba and any random state. The wages in Canada are unreal. Add on the benefits and pensions and it’s easy to see why the middle class is falling farther and farther behind. Manitoba has over 30 school divisions. Average superintendent salaries are over $200,000 a year. Each division also has multiple area superintendents all making well over $100,000 a year. It’s an astronomically mind blowing waste of money. All these people have assistants and secretaries. Not to mention all the infrastructure for offices for all these divisions. It’s a fucking mind boggling waste. The average Manitoban earning $30,000 a year can not afford to pay for police and firemen who earn $100,000 per year. The police are the 1% in Winnipeg.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Hecate

The middle class isn’t growing because everyone is being taxed to death paying for public service employees. Tax upon tax and fee after fee. Almost a quarter of Manitoba’s workforce works for the government. It’s not sustainable. The poor are the hardest hit with highest proportion of their income going to fund overpaid unionized government employees. Just do a comparison of wages for police, fire, teachers, between Manitoba and any random state. The wages in Canada are unreal. Add on the benefits and pensions and it’s easy to see why the middle class is falling farther and farther behind. Manitoba has over 30 school divisions. Average superintendent salaries are over $200,000 a year. Each division also has multiple area superintendents all making well over $100,000 a year. It’s an astronomically mind blowing waste of money. All these people have assistants and secretaries. Not to mention all the infrastructure for offices for all these divisions. It’s a fucking mind boggling waste. The average Manitoban earning $30,000 a year can not afford to pay for police and firemen who earn $100,000 per year. The police are the 1% in Winnipeg.

I understand what you (and maybe Riverman) are trying to say but someone earning $30k pays very little in taxes. If unionized public employees were payed less, the savings wouldn’t go to the poor - they would go to the businesses and upper class who’s taxes would inevitably be cut.

[1ajs]

if u guys ever looked at the cost of stuff in canada vs the states even from province to province u would start to see some other issues besides wages for government.

lets see steel pipe made in edmonton is cheaper to buy in detroit then it is in canada so u see allot of it going to the states then shiped back...

windows made here in manitoba.

i need to buy 10 windows i priced it out from the factory custom sizes 18k.
got quote from mynards in grandforks for the same exac twindows from the same factory 5k cdn u see this over and over and over with stuff here in canada...........

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Hecate

The middle class isn’t growing because everyone is being taxed to death paying for public service employees. Tax upon tax and fee after fee. Almost a quarter of Manitoba’s workforce works for the government. It’s not sustainable. The poor are the hardest hit with highest proportion of their income going to fund overpaid unionized government employees. Just do a comparison of wages for police, fire, teachers, between Manitoba and any random state. The wages in Canada are unreal. Add on the benefits and pensions and it’s easy to see why the middle class is falling farther and farther behind. Manitoba has over 30 school divisions. Average superintendent salaries are over $200,000 a year. Each division also has multiple area superintendents all making well over $100,000 a year. It’s an astronomically mind blowing waste of money. All these people have assistants and secretaries. Not to mention all the infrastructure for offices for all these divisions. It’s a fucking mind boggling waste. The average Manitoban earning $30,000 a year can not afford to pay for police and firemen who earn $100,000 per year. The police are the 1% in Winnipeg.

The elimination of so many working class union jobs has hit way harder than the tax burden.

At one time there were many good, stable, unionized working class jobs in the private sector. But governments kowtowed to the robber baron Peter Pocklington types who would rather shut a plant down to show the workers who's boss than come to the table and maybe make a compromise or two.

I'm not sure that aggressively cracking down on public sector workers the same way that the private sector did is really a recipe for middle class happiness. Two wrongs don't make a right.