General Updates and News

[Empire]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for posting that article - I hadn't seen it. Very good point, too, that we should consider such measures to protect our significant buildings, if possible.

New York certainly had some significant losses before the GCS, so it appeared that they at least learned from their experiences.

Two significant losses in the sixties:
Penn Station




The Singer Building



While Halifax has nothing on the scale of those two buildings, it should stand as a reminder that left unprotected, anything is susceptible no matter how grand.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvani...on_Square_Garden_.281963.E2.80.931968.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingerBuilding15.jpg
http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5010

Excellent tour of New York @ wirednewyork.com

Here are some buildings in Halifax that could be demolished in the near future. We need leglislation to prevent it.

Dennis Building:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.6...JNE1mrOhRd8AwfKNQ&cbp=12,220.41,,0,-22.5

Prenor Trust:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.6...hHXIC6F37f6mfvwkA&cbp=12,134.05,,0,-22.5

Bluenose Diner:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.6...KPAG0XIxHO0x_jlDg&cbp=12,207.86,,0,-22.5

Merrill Lynch Securties:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.6...8sjAK_xWzolkm8B_TA&cbp=12,24.47,,0,-22.5

BMO building....
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=dartmouth&h...L5i1Ivnk_MA4wrTCw&cbp=12,51.05,,0,-18.96

And the big shocker per Drybrains post....1723 Hollis:
That is complete insanity.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.6...DDxFXIaSN2XCE_o4w&cbp=12,187.71,,0,-22.5

[Drybrain]

WHOA. The Dennis Building? I didn't think there was any danger of losing that—what's the deal there? I remember some minor work being done on the exterior earlier last year, even.

Blue Nose and Merril Lynch wouldn't be entirely demo'ed, I understand, but a hypothetical expansion of the BMO building would seem them facaded-ed, which would be pretty terrible. (I don't think Prenor is in danger—it already IS a facade.)

[Keith P.]

Having spent considerable time in the Dennis Bldg, I have mixed feelings. It is a strange building. Everything seems undersized, from the elevators to the hallways. I do not think the floor height is up to current standards. The entire interior would need to be gutted to remove the various awful provincial government renovations. There is almost nothing historic left inside. Strangely though, I think it would almost be better to be converted to residential somehow, if the parking requirement could be addressed.

I doubt any of the other buildings are at risk.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

WHOA. The Dennis Building? I didn't think there was any danger of losing that—what's the deal there? I remember some minor work being done on the exterior earlier last year, even.

Blue Nose and Merril Lynch wouldn't be entirely demo'ed, I understand, but a hypothetical expansion of the BMO building would seem them facaded-ed, which would be pretty terrible. (I don't think Prenor is in danger—it already IS a facade.)

The Dennis building has been on the chopping block for years. To alter any part of Merril Lynch would be unacceptable. Bluenose and Prenor Trust could potentially be completely demolished. FYI...these buildings are in the Royal Centre block, not BMO.

Corinthian Columns worthy of preservation
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.6...mRFNtnFEhX1w&cbp=12,56.76,,1,-51.06&z=19

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Having spent considerable time in the Dennis Bldg, I have mixed feelings. It is a strange building. Everything seems undersized, from the elevators to the hallways. I do not think the floor height is up to current standards. The entire interior would need to be gutted to remove the various awful provincial government renovations. There is almost nothing historic left inside. Strangely though, I think it would almost be better to be converted to residential somehow, if the parking requirement could be addressed.

I doubt any of the other buildings are at risk.

if it was well done, a residential conversion would be great. I don't think that a mid-19th century Italianate beauty that's been owned by former mayors, lieutenant governors, MPs, etc should be permitted to be knocked down. (Especially when it's in the hands of the provincial government.) Not in this city, where the bulk of our jewels have already been excised from the cityscape. There's no reason why a new structure on the adjacent Birks site has to threaten this structure—it would just have to be restricted to that one lot.

I'm sure there are issues in the interior of the Dennis Building, and if it's true as you say that the interior doesn't have much historical bits left intact, a gut job would be fine—but not just a facadectomy that would involving stapling a wall or two to some larger building.

Anyway, sorry to go off. I just learned of that. Figured it was one of those safe-for-sure buildings, but as Empire said--no such thing.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Empire

The Dennis building has been on the chopping block for years. To alter any part of Merril Lynch would be unacceptable. Bluenose and Prenor Trust could potentially be completely demolished. FYI...these buildings are in the Royal Centre block, not BMO.

Corinthian Columns worthy of preservation
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.6...mRFNtnFEhX1w&cbp=12,56.76,,1,-51.06&z=19

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I agree. I looked into the Dennis Building--the whole block, including the old Birks site, is owned by the province, and redevelopment plans seemed hypothetical—one report I looked at investigated how citiznes, planning professionals, and the business community would respond to demolition, and suggested there was strong desire for facade retention at least (still not good enough, but anyway).

So it doesn't seem to be on the chopping block in any imminent way. Do you know anything more, or have any links?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I agree. I looked into the Dennis Building--the whole block, including the old Birks site, is owned by the province, and redevelopment plans seemed hypothetical—one report I looked at investigated how citiznes, planning professionals, and the business community would respond to demolition, and suggested there was strong desire for facade retention at least (still not good enough, but anyway).

So it doesn't seem to be on the chopping block in any imminent way. Do you know anything more, or have any links?

The possibility of the building being demolished is the issue. It may not be demolished in the near future but there is nothing to protect the building either.

This Joint Public Lands Report may be the one you are referring to. pg. 44
http://www.halifax.ca/CapitalDistrict/documents/27Feb07COWPublicLandsPresentation.pdf

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Indeed. I was completely shocked to learn that 1723 Hollis Street (not the provincial building facing George Street, but this one) is cited under the art gallery's own five-year redevelopment plan as a potential structure to tear down. The gallery needs more space (and I suspect desires a flashy, modern building a la the AGO). Their first choice is to relocate and build an entirely new inner-city locale. But their second choice is to demolish 1723 Hollis, which isn't a listed heritage property, and build anew on the site. Which, given how grandly this block works (the second grandest block in town, really, after the Dominion Building) it would be insane. And I don't say insane lightly.

So, take nothing for granted. If even the AGNS isn't above calling in the wrecking ball for one of the best buildings of any era in the entire province, then who knows what else can happen.

wow that would be sad it's a beautiful building with other historic properties around it. That's why we have a whole district in St. John's that is heritage protected (3 levels of special heritage zones within the district and it encompasses pretty much all of the downtown) and all buildings are protected in the area. (It of course is now causing problems with the growing pains we are experiencing) I'm not familiar with building regulations in Halifax, is there a strictly protected heritage zone? or is it more of a designation for one or two streets and other scattered historically important buildings?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

wow that would be sad it's a beautiful building with other historic properties around it. That's why we have a whole district in St. John's that is heritage protected (3 levels of special heritage zones within the district and it encompasses pretty much all of the downtown) and all buildings are protected in the area. (It of course is now causing problems with the growing pains we are experiencing) I'm not familiar with building regulations in Halifax, is there a strictly protected heritage zone? or is it more of a designation for one or two streets and other scattered historically important buildings?

I'm probably not the most knowledgeable around on that--there's a heritage district along Barrington Street, which I don't think guarantees against demolition, but stacks the deck significantly against it. I don't really know about laws in the historic properties/Granville Street area. I assume given their historic/tourist/institutional importance, they're basically guaranteed to be preserved.

Everything else is a crapshoot though. Buildings can't be nominated for heritage status by community petition or an advocacy group. The owner has to nominate them, and as a result, there are some exceptional buildings that aren't listed, often because the owner has long-range plans to maybe, one day, knock them down.

Another problem, ironically, is that our fuddy-duddy heritage advocates in the Heritage Trust are worse than useless--they're ineffectual at protecting old buildings, and they don't even seem to realize that they can argue for heritage from a position of economics (real-estate valuations tend to be higher in heritage-rich districts, continent-wide) or of progressive urbanism. Instead they're obsessed with viewplanes and little else, and they seem more anti-modernity than pro-heritage. It's frustrating to be a heritage advocate AND an appreciator of good contemporary design in Halifax, and have to constantly stress that those guys don't represent you.

[someone123]

Sometimes reports like the AGNS one are written from a very limited perspective and are simply meant to enumerate the possibilities available, whether or not they are realistic. I don't think they'd seriously consider demolishing either of those buildings, but both should be heritage buildings to remove any question. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be nice if the AGNS would build on the parking lot next to the Dominion building.

I think the whole area around Province House should have been made a historic district, or an extension of Historic Properties (which themselves don't seem to have much real protection). That area is comparable to places like Quebec's old town or Old Montreal in terms of its importance to Canada. Buildings like Province House and the Bank of NS are of national significance, and there used to be more like Royal Bank's 1800's HQ. There were maybe a dozen or more mid-sized stone buildings that have been torn down around there (Customs House, the ones next to the Halifax Club, Birks buildings, etc.). It would have been an amazing district had it been left intact, but it is still unique and impressive as it is.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sometimes reports like the AGNS one are written from a very limited perspective and are simply meant to enumerate the possibilities available, whether or not they are realistic. I don't think they'd seriously consider demolishing either of those buildings, but both should be heritage buildings to remove any question. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be nice if the AGNS would build on the parking lot next to the Dominion building.

For some reason I feel like that was ruled out, but forget why.

Anyway, all the details are on page 53 of this consultant's report.

The ranking of the solutions is on page 79, under "recommended solutions."

The only mention of 1723 Hollis's heritage value is: "The provincial building that houses Gallery South is not a heritage building. As such, there would be no legislative impediments to making substantial alterations to the exterior of this building, including demolition."

Pretty bloodless language. Who knows what the gallery's honchos made of it,but their 2012-2017 strategic plan talks of building a new home to replace the old one--non-specific enough to worrisome, to me. I bet there'd be a big public outcry, and a big outcry among many gallery donors, if they tried to knock down 1723; nonetheless, as with the Dennis building, the idea is now floating around, and these things sometimes have a way of just happening...

As you can tell, I get really hung up on this stuff, but I think we're at a vital point where we're finally seeing re-investment in downtown. We have a chance this time to do it right, and sensitively integrate new projects with the good old stuff we have, filling out our empty lots and insubstantial structures. Or we can exacerbate the mistakes of the 50-70s and end up worse off for it.

[someone123]

I tend to agree. Halifax doesn't have a lot of really great old buildings, and even the mid-range ones are important in terms of providing a context for the real gems like the Bank of NS that are protected. Once they're gone they're gone.

That being said, there have been some decent heritage projects lately: Barrington Espace, Waterside, and maybe soon NFB. There's also been a lot of great maintenance and restoration work on the Public Gardens, City Hall, the Dingle, etc. It seems to me that these buildings are being maintained to a higher standard than we've seen in recent decades. It is nice to see some of these spaces and buildings finally living up to their potential.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sometimes reports like the AGNS one are written from a very limited perspective and are simply meant to enumerate the possibilities available, whether or not they are realistic. I don't think they'd seriously consider demolishing either of those buildings, but both should be heritage buildings to remove any question. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be nice if the AGNS would build on the parking lot next to the Dominion building.

The parking lot next to The Dominion Public Building would be ideal for a gallery expansion. It's hard to imagine the space wouldn't be large enough at maybe six floors. I think one of the issues with the present location is lack of floor space on one level so this may not completely solve the problem but it would go a long way. 1723 could be connected underground and maybe the north end of the Dominion Public Building could be incorporated into the new gallery to get maximum floor space on one level.

[Drybrain]

It's just ludicrous that such proposals can even be tabled—basically, besides the Dominion Building and the seats of government, the three biggest 19th and early 20th-century buildings in the entire downtown have at least some risk of being demolished.

We may have a rep as a historic city, but it's un-earned—even development-crazed Toronto is better at protecting their old stuff: They have 21 heritage conservation districts. And it certainly hasn't turned away developers there.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Wow! Lots of interesting/shocking stuff here. I wouldn't have imagined any of those buildings to be potential demolition sites but this really underlines the need for stronger/smarter regulations/guidelines/processes to protect these significant buildings.

Such as not leaving it up to the building's owner to designate it as a heritage site. I mean, why would a developer want to put stringent regulations on what he can do to his own building when he really only owns it to turn a profit? Kinda like the old fox guarding the henhouse scenario...

While I'm all for new development, I think we need to aim for development that is both intelligent and with a heart - basically someone123's vision mentioned above. Keep the downtown functional and viable but don't forget its history. As one of the country's oldest cities there are still a lot of treasures remaining and as already said, once they're gone they're gone forever.

Drybrain, you make a good point. The heritage trust doesn't seem to be focusing on the right issues, so how do we as citizens go about effecting change so as to properly protect our significant buildings, if we can't "trust" them to properly advocate?

It certainly can't be left to the developers with vested interests to decide and most of the politicians and government agencies seem to be short sighted or at least dysfunctional - so how do we get our local representatives to learn what is already common knowledge in other cities?

Maybe the heritage trust needs somebody with vision to step in and refocus their activities? I dunno, but I agree with Empire that we need legislation in place before it's too late for some of these treasures.

[jeddy1989]

I must say I'm very surprised that the heritage isn't Halifax is not adequately protected as it often markets itself as a historic city. St. John's may have gone a bit too far in the other direction with protecting all of our downtown, however it has given us a historic and uniquely European feel and with the push to designate a modern central business district in the west end of our downtown we hope to solve the battle of heritage vs progress. However Halifax has to protect it's past and learn from other historic cities (it's cousin on the island next door could show you many things about heritage protection ) I am all for progress and highrises and such (obviously or I wouldn't be on SSP) but you need to keep sight of your past and not let it get destroyed in the processes. we'll throw Shannie Duff and Sheleigh O'Leary your way for a bit

[someone123]

It's not really true that there isn't heritage protection in Halifax. There are about 30 national historic sites, something like 300 municipally-protected heritage buildings, however many provincial buildings, and then the Historic Properties and Barrington conservation district. There are also multiple streetscapes like Inglis and Carlton that are protected.

St. John's conservation-wise seems pretty comparable. The more cohesively-preserved areas there are mostly residential neighbourhoods, as they are in Halifax. A lot of the reason why the preservation happened probably had to do with the fact that there was limited development there for a long time. The same was true in Quebec City, whereas Toronto has seen tons of building and has lost a huge number of heritage buildings.

One problem in Halifax is that there doesn't seem to be any process to register a new building unless the owner wants it registered. I think that would have to be fixed at the provincial level. Here in Vancouver they do have a process for that; they just put a development of a hotel on hold for 120 days by order of the city council and the building could be registered after a review.

There should also be a few more conservation districts, but they should be focused on encouraging restorations of buildings. Unfortunately they tend to be co-opted by people who don't want new development, often to the detriment of their primary purpose. Even the Barrington district is a bit too concerned about things like signage, which is much less important than making sure that buildings like NFB get preserved.

[Empire]

Some sort of automatic process should be initiated instantly when a demolition permit is applied for. The application would go through a rigorous review to determine the heritage or community value of the property. If the building in question is deemed to be of significant value then the demolition permit is denied.

Also, Property Valuation Services needs to be involved. Properties in a "historic district" would receive a rating for their heritage/historic merit. Then, when a demolition or building/renovation permit is applied for, the property status would be in a database to aid in the review process. If a square vinyl sided box with tiny windows is to be added to a Victorian brick townhouse the assessment notice on record would show that the heritage rating is too high to allow such a cheap addition.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

There should also be a few more conservation districts, but they should be focused on encouraging restorations of buildings. Unfortunately they tend to be co-opted by people who don't want new development, often to the detriment of their primary purpose. Even the Barrington district is a bit too concerned about things like signage, which is much less important than making sure that buildings like NFB get preserved.

Not to get into a big agreement-fest, but this is VERY true. A Spring Garden conservation district, for example, would hopefully ensure the preservation of the BMO and Mills buildings, without being used a cudgel to thwart development over at, say, the Winsbys site or the Sisters sites (which a small but vocal number of locals were opposed to.)

Anyway, it just feels odd that provincially owned structures like 1723 Hollis and the Dennis Building aren't designated, and that it isn't simply taken for granted that any new development in the area will have to include them. We're not talking about little old shacks here—I can't claim to know how Halifax stacks up to other cities in this regard, however.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by Empire

Some sort of automatic process should be initiated instantly when a demolition permit is applied for. The application would go through a rigorous review to determine the heritage or community value of the property. If the building in question is deemed to be of significant value then the demolition permit is denied.

Also, Property Valuation Services needs to be involved. Properties in a "historic district" would receive a rating for their heritage/historic merit. Then, when a demolition or building/renovation permit is applied for, the property status would be in a database to aid in the review process. If a square vinyl sided box with tiny windows is to be added to a Victorian brick townhouse the assessment notice on record would show that the heritage rating is too high to allow such a cheap addition.

In the st. John's heritage zone, there are different levels, as well as different rules based on each level. for example a building in a heritage zone 3 most likely will not get approved to be demolished if it is older than 50 years old.

the owner of this building applied for demolition and even though it may not have specific public history significance. The buildings behind it are now gone due to a fire a few years ago and the owner probably wanted to develop the entire site but because of the heritage protection it was denied. (now mind you if there was something to redevelop the land and incorporate the building that may have been approved.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=47.5...D7LgG9jnRopIG2BA&cbp=12,284.73,,0,-10.12

I see how restricted some parts of our city are and it goes a bit far but I can see why these things exist.

A rant haha ops, Im not even sure if it's relevant to the convo but here's two more of my cents