Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logan5

The story is a little misleading. The 2500 units is for the Concord Lands. The potential for the viaduct lands is said to be 1000 units.

Which means even less incentive for developers to pay for the 200mil cost.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

What does the Malkin Connector or any other new road development east of Main Street have to do with any of this? It's a plan to replace the viaducts, period.

Originally Posted by Vin

Then good luck in trying to disperse traffic east out of downtown and Strathcona area from Pacific Boulevard.

Pre Viaduct Removal
1. Cross Beatty Street on West Georgia
2. Breeze through viaduct
3. On Prior Street.

Post Viaduct Removal (& without the Malkin Connector)
1. Cross Beatty Street on West Georgia
2. Down the ramp at West Georgia to Pacific Blvd, turn left at signals
3. Possibly stop to go thru Pat Quinn Way Intersection
4. Possibly stop and go thru Carall Street Intersection
5. Stop and turn left at signals on National Avenue intersection
6. Stop and turn left at signals on Main Street intersection
7. Stop and turn right at signals on Prior Street intersection
8. Possibly stop and go thru a new subdivision street intersection
10. Possibly stop and go thru Gore Avenue Intersection
11. On Prior Street.

To start with, you're describing a route that I'm extremely skeptical that anyone would actually have to take.

But more importantly, of the 11 post-viaduct points you listed only the last 3 have anything to do with east of Main and only one of them is different than what viaduct traffic faces now. East of Main already handles all of the existing inbound and outbound viaduct traffic and there's no reason it can't continue to do so once they've been removed. So again I ask: what does the Malkin connector have to do with any of this?

[Vin]

There is a reason why we are the most congested city in North America: we keep removing vital infrastructure that help to speed up traffic flow, and refuse to improve on the existing ones. I know this article is a little old, but it still applies here. Please note that the choke points mentioned in the article did not include the road entrances into the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts, as they actually help reduce traffic congestion.
The Georgia mentioned here must be referring to the stretch near the Stanley Park causeway, and the Dunsmiur is the stretch coming out of the viaduct, and not entering it.



Vancouver edges out Los Angeles for worst traffic congestion in North America: index


BY TIFFANY CRAWFORD, VANCOUVER SUN NOVEMBER 7, 2013
http://www.vancouversun.com/Vancouve..._lsa=686b-221e


Vancouver edges out Los Angeles for worst traffic congestion in North America: index


Metro Vancouver traffic jams are the worst in North America, according to a quarterly ranking by a global navigation company.

The 2013 TomTom Travel Index released Wednesday shows the Vancouver region has edged out Los Angeles by one per cent for the No. 1 congested city. It claims that Vancouver travel times were 36 per cent longer at peak hours than during non-rush hours.

The Amsterdam-based company says it uses real-time data from millions of its GPS customers to track traffic flow. The company then uses a computer program to compare travel times during non-congested periods with travel times in peak hours.

The difference is expressed as a percentage increase in travel time, and the report takes into account local roads, arterials and highways.

Choke points in Vancouver include entrance roads to bridges such as the Knight Street, Oak and Lions Gate bridges, as well as downtown roads such as Georgia, Dunsmuir and Seymour.

Vancouver’s congestion has increased 2.8 per cent in comparison to the index’s 2012 second-quarter findings when the congestion rate was 32.7 per cent, the report says.

Among Canadian cities, Toronto ranked seventh in the index and Montreal placed 10th out of 169 cities surveyed worldwide.

TomTom says the cumulative delay for average commuter with a 30-minute trip is an extra 93 hours, or more than 11 working days, spent behind the wheel each year.

Richard Walton, chair of the Metro Vancouver Mayors’ Council on Regional Transportation, has previously cautioned that the TomTom report data could be skewed if people using the navigation systems are using them because they are on the most congested routes.

In 2012, well-known Reuters blogger Felix Salmon criticized TomTom’s index as “pretty useless” because of several flaws in how its data is collected.

According to Salmon, those flaws include that TomTom’s data is gathered from people who use its GPS devices, who may not be representative of the population as a whole, and that people are more likely to use a GPS device when they don’t know where they’re going rather than on routine commutes.

Salmon also noted that the way TomTom’s index is calculated actually penalizes more compact cities because each city’s index is expressed as the relative increase in travel times during congested periods.

“If you have a 45-minute commute in Atlanta, for instance, as measured on a congestion-free basis, and you’re stuck in traffic for an extra half an hour, then that’s 67% congestion,” wrote Salmon. “Whereas if you’re stuck in traffic for 15 minutes on a drive that would take you 15 minutes without traffic, that’s 100% congestion.”

ticrawford@vancouversun.com

The top cities for traffic congestion in North America are:

1. Vancouver

2. Los Angeles

3. San Francisco

4. Honolulu

5. Seattle

6. San Jose

7. Toronto

8. Washington

9. New York

10. Montreal

© Copyright (c)

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Vin

There is a reason why we are the most congested city in North America: we keep removing vital infrastructure that help to speed up traffic flow, and refuse to improve on the existing ones. I know this article is a little old, but it still applies here. Please note that the choke points mentioned in the article did not include the road entrances into the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts, as they actually help reduce traffic congestion.
The Georgia mentioned here must be referring to the stretch near the Stanley Park causeway, and the Dunsmiur is the stretch coming out of the viaduct, and not entering it.

The TomTom surveys are almost universally panned by people who know anything about traffic engineering.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

The TomTom surveys are almost universally panned by people who know anything about traffic engineering.

Because no traffic engineer likes to admit that his city's incompetence to manage traffic can be measured? Same reason teachers do not like their performance to be evaluated I guess...

What is wrong with them? To me from purely math perspective it makes sense. They measure how your road infrastructure handles high load or stress.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

To start with, you're describing a route that I'm extremely skeptical that anyone would actually have to take.

Getting from W. Georgia to Prior and beyond to Highway 1 is a favourite among many downtowners, so why wouldn't they take that route? I also read a report some time ago that up to 75% of traffic exiting downtown using the Georgia viaduct during rush hour actually continues to Prior, with only 25% exiting on Main. Off rush hour, it is down to about 65% or so. The route I described is the fastest way to Prior after the viaduct comes down.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

But more importantly, of the 11 post-viaduct points you listed only the last 3 have anything to do with east of Main and only one of them is different than what viaduct traffic faces now. East of Main already handles all of the existing inbound and outbound viaduct traffic and there's no reason it can't continue to do so once they've been removed. So again I ask: what does the Malkin connector have to do with any of this?

You may think that Pacific Boulevard can connect directly to Prior in the current set up. However, that is unlikely as the low skytrain guideway around the Expo Blvd/Prior intersection impedes traffic from flowing directly onto Prior. They need to reroute Pacific Blvd to the start of Prior Street, which would be part of the new Malkin Connector.

With the traffic in such a mess before getting to Prior, the Malkin Connector becomes all the more necessary to help disperse traffic faster by doing what the viaducts were meant to do: saving drivers' time and sanity! It also helps to channel traffic from further away east to an improved Pacific Boulevard without having drivers go all over the side streets in Strathcona to get to Pender, Hastings, etc. Therefore the Malkin Connector is an integral part of the traffic system should the viaducts come down. Otherwise why do you think the City is proposing and studying it in the first place?

The viaducts are currently doing all the job mentioned, so why remove them and add new headaches? In fact, the Malkin Connector would help complement the viaducts , essentially fulfilling the semi-freeway concept proposed in the 60s and 70s. 200mil saved can help to build not one but two Malkin Connectors!

[Vin]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

The TomTom surveys are almost universally panned by people who know anything about traffic engineering.

You don't have to trust the surveyors, you just need to drive on W. Georgia towards Lions Gate Bridge to experience the "fun" of traffic congestion.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Ahh yes, the downtown core. As the late Yogi Berra would say "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

"It ain't over till it's over."

[s211]

Originally Posted by wrenegade

Really? Has that been mentioned in any of the reports? I would like to see that.

Pretty sure that goes back to the sale of the Expo lands.

[makr3trkr]

Originally Posted by Vin

Then good luck in trying to disperse traffic east out of downtown and Strathcona area from Pacific Boulevard.



Pre Viaduct Removal
1. Cross Beatty Street on West Georgia
2. Breeze through viaduct
3. On Prior Street.


Post Viaduct Removal (& without the Malkin Connector)
1. Cross Beatty Street on West Georgia
2. Down the ramp at West Georgia to Pacific Blvd, turn left at signals
3. Possibly stop to go thru Pat Quinn Way Intersection
4. Possibly stop and go thru Carall Street Intersection
5. Stop and turn left at signals on National Avenue intersection
6. Stop and turn left at signals on Main Street intersection
7. Stop and turn right at signals on Prior Street intersection
8. Possibly stop and go thru a new subdivision street intersection
10. Possibly stop and go thru Gore Avenue Intersection
11. On Prior Street.

There are also at least two, possibly three pedestrian crossings (one near the Arena, one near Andy Livingstone, one near Science World) in addition to that.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Vin

There is a reason why we are the most congested city in North America: we keep removing vital infrastructure that help to speed up traffic flow, and refuse to improve on the existing ones. I know this article is a little old, but it still applies here. Please note that the choke points mentioned in the article did not include the road entrances into the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts, as they actually help reduce traffic congestion.
The Georgia mentioned here must be referring to the stretch near the Stanley Park causeway, and the Dunsmiur is the stretch coming out of the viaduct, and not entering it. ..............................

Vancouver edges out Los Angeles for worst traffic congestion in North America: index


BY TIFFANY CRAWFORD, VANCOUVER SUN NOVEMBER 7, 2013
http://www.vancouversun.com/Vancouve..._lsa=686b-221e

_______________________________________________________________
The top cities for traffic congestion in North America are:

1. Vancouver

2. Los Angeles

3. San Francisco

4. Honolulu

5. Seattle

6. San Jose

7. Toronto

8. Washington

9. New York

10. Montreal

© Copyright (c)

None of this is surprising. For its size even back in 1971 when Metro Van passed 1 m, the insfrastructure road-wise was underbuit, like former Hwy 1 and PMB,
and max 2 lanes, like Hwy 99.
There have been major additions, like the Alex Fraser, The Richmond Expressway (still only 4 lanes, and yes I've been stuck for 30+ mins in choked gridlock on it), Golden Ears Bridge, and now the new PMB, Cape Horn interchange complex that are the signs of road infrustructure building Big Time. Not bad

Nevertheless, certain areas have been underbuilt, both for stated financial limitations, and for reasons of keeping the city green and integrated.

Sadly, this has been rather like King Knut and the waves, His Majesty refusing to believe the tide will rise and the seawaves will reach his throne on the beach.

The reality is: Vancouver is a city of 2.5m ~ .
Despite a great and getting greater metro system, people in Metro Vancouver continue to buy, drive, and use cars like anywhere else.
Central city districts, even, and perhaps more than we realize if taking into account wealthy, car-owning people living downtown, and environs, who
use the road system even more than people in outlying areas who commute
>>>> NEED a comprehensive and efficient road city in the central city.
This may involve tunnelling (a dirty word in Vancouver)
The purpose of a tunnelcan by diverse: under a body of water (George Massey), a "mini" tunnelled expressway, like Geary in San Francisco,
or a tunnel can be used to avoid otherwise complex intersections.
An example of this is the Hyde Park Underpass in London, which (eastward) sends Knightsbridge UNDER the Duke of Wellington Monument traffic circle and Park Lane heading north-south>>> and surfacing to the east of all that as Piccadilly.

If this Super Road is so super, there might ($$$$) be the possibility for a tunnel starting east at Malkin and surfacing west on Pacific Bvd near Hornby Street, providing fast CBD access, and Pacific or Burrard, to continue west or south.
Pavlovian response: Noooo!! It will just bring more cars!!! We want to cycle and jog here in Vancouver!! Okay, cycle and jog!
Doing this would be even easier were there even less traffic congestion on the Boulevard and people could appreciate and better use this part of Vancouver if an underpass taking through-traffic were built.
Well, I think we can be aware that the cars are already there, are going to increase in number, Metro Vancouver is going to grow and need more lanespace. The time for building useful infrastrcture for vehicular traffic - yeah, cars and trucks - is now.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Vin

With the traffic in such a mess before getting to Prior, the Malkin Connector becomes all the more necessary to help disperse traffic faster...

Why? The existing routing along Prior and Venables seems to be dispersing the existing viaduct traffic well enough. And surely you're not suggesting that there will be more traffic arriving at these streets even faster once the viaducts are removed.

It seems to me that what you're saying is that we should build new roads east of Main street so that we can save time there to make up for the time you think will be lost by the removal of the viaducts. But that's not what the viaduct removal project is all about. You might was well be talking about building a direct link from Main Street to the freeway. Sure, it would speed things up (even assuming it was politically feasible), but it has nothing to do with the project that's on the table right now.

[GMasterAres]

I don't travel downtown or from downtown that often but I'm curious as has been mentioned many "downtowners" head to HWY1 via Prior (viaduct). I tend to from downtown go down Nelson and across the Cambie then along 12th to get to HWY1.

Is viaduct + Prior faster in general? I just always felt the few times I used that route it seemed slower than ducking over the Cambie Bridge then going along 12th/Grandview.

Anyway as to the topic on hand, I actually think bringing them down is a win-win situation for the region.

Either it will turn out great and traffic won't be an issue which means a huge bonus to Vancouver and a more linked downtown core to East Vancouver + opportunities for Vancouver which will be aok for the region as a whole.

Or it will fail miserably and traffic will be insane, and you'll have business start to vacate even more from the downtown core and head closer to the suburbs which will boost the surrounding cities and overall still be aok for the region as a whole.

So regionally speaking, I think it will turn out fine. If you work downtown I still find it a bit crazy that you don't take SkyTrain and drive but I'm sure there are perfectly valid reasons why that is so all the power to you.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Why? The existing routing along Prior and Venables seems to be dispersing the existing viaduct traffic well enough. And surely you're not suggesting that there will be more traffic arriving at these streets even faster once the viaducts are removed.

It seems to me that what you're saying is that we should build new roads east of Main street so that we can save time there to make up for the time you think will be lost by the removal of the viaducts. But that's not what the viaduct removal project is all about. You might was well be talking about building a direct link from Main Street to the freeway. Sure, it would speed things up (even assuming it was politically feasible), but it has nothing to do with the project that's on the table right now.

It's not just about time, idling cars produce unecessary emissions. When people say "its only an extra few minutes" multiply that by tens of thousands of vehicles per day. More than anything, this illustrates this isn't about being "green", its about car-hater optics and handing a big developer a nice gift.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Why? The existing routing along Prior and Venables seems to be dispersing the existing viaduct traffic well enough. And surely you're not suggesting that there will be more traffic arriving at these streets even faster once the viaducts are removed.

It seems to me that what you're saying is that we should build new roads east of Main street so that we can save time there to make up for the time you think will be lost by the removal of the viaducts. But that's not what the viaduct removal project is all about. You might was well be talking about building a direct link from Main Street to the freeway. Sure, it would speed things up (even assuming it was politically feasible), but it has nothing to do with the project that's on the table right now.

Yah I doubt it. The Viaducts are the choke point for the entire network, it's the downtown core itself and in my experience Georgia due to the Lion's Gate Bridge that does a good job of that. Removing the viaducts doesn't change the Lion's Gate being 3 lanes and causing Georgia street to backup until the cows come home.

So you're probably right that said the reverse is also the case here. You remove the viaducts and you move cars slower (it just makes sense) through a small stretch. That means less cars per minute overall through the Prior area so traffic may actually improve east of Main Street after the viaduct is removed as the traffic lights will even things out a bit more and/or cause people just to back up in the core.

To me the biggest question is the downtown core itself but we'll likely just have to wait and see. I unfortunately don't trust any city when it comes to estimating car counts because I've yet to see one get it anywhere close to right. They're for sure going to tear these things down in my opinion so I guess we'll just have to wait to see what actually happens.

Personally I don't think it will be bad and the benefits overall may outweigh the negatives. But I can say that living 35km away and not really being affected at all with either decision so take my opinion for what it's worth, probably not much.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by s211

As I recall, the remediation costs are the province's problem, so the city is likely not giving it any consideration.

That's only between Concord Pacific and the Province arising from the sale of the Expo Lands.

If there was a transfer of lands from the Province (or maybe expropriation by the City from private landowners) for construction of the viaducts in the early 1970s - that far, far predates any concerns about environmental contamination.

The CCME (Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment) land remediation standards were only developed in Canada in response to the sale of the Expo Lands - so in or about 1986. BC's contaminated sites remediation standards started with those standards and have evolved from there.

So in the early 1970s, it would not even have been raised as an issue in any land sale / right-of-way agreements signed at the time.

i.e. The City would be on the hook for the remediation of its lands (I can't see why the Province would indemnify the City for remediation of lands unrelated to the Expo Lands sale). They may coordinate remediation efforts, but cost liability would remain with the separate landowners.

***********

As an aside - as many have mentioned before -
- Strathcona's concerns can be addressed by building the Malkin Connector with the viaducts in place.

[red-paladin]

I believe that ultimately nimbys will prevent the Malkin connector from being built, even though they will complain the most about traffic it seeks to mitigate.

As for the viaduct removal, I'm not a supporter, but I don't think the traffic impact will be all that significant. Despite multiple attestations above to the contrary, traffic into and out of downtown has been slowly decreasing for years.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I believe that ultimately nimbys will prevent the Malkin connector from being built, even though they will complain the most about traffic it seeks to mitigate.

As for the viaduct removal, I'm not a supporter, but I don't think the traffic impact will be all that significant. Despite multiple attestations above to the contrary, traffic into and out of downtown has been slowly decreasing for years.

In your opinion, traffic decrease in/out of downtown perhaps due to what? More people living and working downton, thereby inducing a reduction in commuter suburban traffic?
Living>< working in the same town centres (à la Vancouverism), and / or people commuting between town centres? Or a slowdown in some aspect in the CBD economy.
Better transit? .... Opinion, please? Thank you. I'm really interested, Red.

[Pinion]

If it's true, which I have a hard time believing, I'd guess it's a larger percentage of people not working at all, either retirees or people who are wealthy enough to not need to.

For me, the viaducts are a way of getting through the downtown peninsula, not necessarily to it. Like if I'm going to/from Main street or Kingsway, I'll use the viaducts. The removal will just lead to me readjusting more to the east, and I suppose Vancouver proper would love to hear that.

[officedweller]

I think West 2nd/GNW and West 12th/Grandview will get busier.