Salt Lake MSA Development Thread

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by brankrom

With all the aspects of new urbanism that were implemented at Daybreak it still lacks the density of traditional neighborhoods and lacking the grid makes the place hard to navigate, at least they mostly ditched cul de sacs. I've made special trips to Daybreak just to walk there and the place still has the middle eastern war zone undeveloped feel to it. I look forward to what will happen in a decade or two, but for now it is still hopelessly stuck in the suburban mindset.

I mean, I don't know. I've done the same with Daybreak and a lot of it really does feel complete. The area west of the temple is an absolute dream to walk through and enjoy life in the summer. The area between Soda Row and the TRAX station, for instance, is definitely still a work in progress. But once everything comes together, including the additional town centers that they have planned, I have faith that Daybreak will be a really great place overall.

Originally Posted by brankrom

The District is terrible development simply a re-imagined strip mall with miles of parking.

Agree one million percent. I wish the District would have been built in Daybreak, but at a much more walkable and human scale.

Originally Posted by Plaid Shirts

Austin is putting together a transit system similar to TRAX.

Austin's Metrorail is commuter rail, not light rail. Quite a difference.

[Plaid Shirts]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

Austin's Metrorail is commuter rail, not light rail. Quite a difference.

Austin's tap water taste different than SLC's, but it's still water.

Both cities rail system serves the same purpose.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Plaid Shirts

Austin's tap water taste different than SLC's, but it's still water.

Both cities rail system serves the same purpose.

AUSTIN
89 bus routes (only 49 regular routes)
32 miles of commuter rail
130,000 daily riders

SALT LAKE CITY
131 bus routes
3 light rail
1 BRT
1 streetcar
1 commuter rail
88 miles of commuter rail
45 miles of light rail
2 miles of streetcar
169,000 daily riders

[Plaid Shirts]

Originally Posted by Stenar

AUSTIN
89 bus routes (only 49 regular routes)
32 miles of commuter rail
130,000 daily riders

SALT LAKE CITY
131 bus routes
3 light rail
1 BRT
1 streetcar
1 commuter rail
88 miles of commuter rail
45 miles of light rail
2 miles of streetcar
169,000 daily riders

Those numbers are actually interesting and cool to look at.

Sorry but what is BRT? And is the streetcar the Sugarhouse line?

[strippadam]

BRT is Bus Rapid Transit
The 2 mile of streetcar is the S (Sugar House) street car

[i-215]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

Agree one million percent. I wish the District would have been built in Daybreak, but at a much more walkable and human scale.

Ideally, yes.

In practice, no. Proximity to Bangerter Hwy (and 114th as an arterial) is the only reason that center leases out as well as it does. And the little shops like having the big boxes (theaters, Harmons, Office Max) to anchor to.

SoDa Row will do okay, in time. You would't want The District in Daybreak. I mean, a Megaplex and an Office Max would sort of ruin the "human scale" of it, even if you put the parking in a structure.

[Clark0501]

Any news on Fashion Place Mall development?

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by i-215

Ideally, yes.

In practice, no. Proximity to Bangerter Hwy (and 114th as an arterial) is the only reason that center leases out as well as it does. And the little shops like having the big boxes (theaters, Harmons, Office Max) to anchor to.

SoDa Row will do okay, in time. You would't want The District in Daybreak. I mean, a Megaplex and an Office Max would sort of ruin the "human scale" of it, even if you put the parking in a structure.

Fair points. I should have been more specific. I definitely wouldn't have wanted big box or non-local stores at Soda Row, but it would have been nice if all that energy that was expended in building the District went toward Soda Row instead. If that makes any sense.

[goldcntry]

I still say a Trader Joes would be ideal in Soda Row... and it would be closer to me than the downtown location!

[jedikermit]

I know since Harmon's is in the District they'd never do this, but I think they'd be an ideal local grocer to have smaller grocery stores in places like Daybreak. They've shown they can break out of their usual model in Draper and their Downtown locations; they could figure out how to make a truly walkable store for TOD communities.

[JMK]

Update on Aquarium,

Utah’s new Living Planet Aquarium to open on March 25
New aquarium is triple the size of the old one; it will be 9th-biggest in U.S.


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/enterta...sandy.html.csp

It’s taken a bit longer than they’d hoped, but the folks at Loveland Living Planet Aquarium finally have an opening date for their new facility: March 25.

They closed the doors at their Sandy building in September and hoped to have the construction completed in December, but building a 136,000-square-foot aquarium that will feature 74 exhibitions and house thousands of animals in 600,000 gallons of water is no easy task.

[brankrom]

Originally Posted by i-215

Ideally, yes.

In practice, no. Proximity to Bangerter Hwy (and 114th as an arterial) is the only reason that center leases out as well as it does. And the little shops like having the big boxes (theaters, Harmons, Office Max) to anchor to.

SoDa Row will do okay, in time. You would't want The District in Daybreak. I mean, a Megaplex and an Office Max would sort of ruin the "human scale" of it, even if you put the parking in a structure.

Who says we need Office Max's and Megaplexes? It seems basic services could be handled on a much smaller scale than the big box with miles of parking model. That's the thing that gets me about the suburban mindset even in places like Daybreak, people supposedly move to the burbs for safe bucolic neighborhoods but few things are less safe than navigating a Walmart or a strip mall parking lot.

Where I live I'm 3 blocks from Emigration market and 6 blocks from the 9th and 9th Smiths so less than a mile. I can and do walk to both places regularly to shop. I couldn't imagine doing the same to get to Harmon's from Daybreak. It's about 2.3 miles from the farthest side of Daybreak to Harmon's but look at the war zone one would have to travel. I think a lot of people forget just how poorly served and disconnected suburban areas are.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by brankrom

Who says we need Office Max's and Megaplexes? It seems basic services could be handled on a much smaller scale than the big box with miles of parking model. That's the thing that gets me about the suburban mindset even in places like Daybreak, people supposedly move to the burbs for safe bucolic neighborhoods but few things are less safe than navigating a Walmart or a strip mall parking lot.

Where I live I'm 3 blocks from Emigration market and 6 blocks from the 9th and 9th Smiths so less than a mile. I can and do walk to both places regularly to shop. I couldn't imagine doing the same to get to Harmon's from Daybreak. It's about 2.3 miles from the farthest side of Daybreak to Harmon's but look at the war zone one would have to travel. I think a lot of people forget just how poorly served and disconnected suburban areas are.

LOL.. I think you have vastly overstated the difficulty of getting to a Harmons or navigating a big box parking lot.

[StevenF]

The problem between Daybreak and The District is that they were developed as separate developments. If I heard correctly the developer of Daybreak was extremely unhappy with South Jordan with allowing the District so close to Daybreak. Now lets act like the District does not exist and now think of how you feel about Daybreak. Daybreak is far ahead of the curve in walkability once you factor out the District completely. The District really curbed a few store options for Daybreak in the short term till the area is more built out and demand increases for retail and grocery stores.

The real question is, what will the District be like in 20-30 years? My guess it will be an old run down retail center with empty spaces much like Taylorsville's 5400 and Redwood Rd. While Daybreak will continue to have demand because of the smart build out of that area.

[brankrom]

Originally Posted by wrendog

LOL.. I think you have vastly overstated the difficulty of getting to a Harmons or navigating a big box parking lot.

Not even overstated. I walk and take transit just about everywhere I go and I know good and not so good areas to walk.

I never walked to Harmon's from Daybreak but I did walk from Front Runner to Station Park and its a joke. You are taking your life into your own hands walking across the sea of parking at Station Park and the round about to get the new lifestyle center part of Station Park is incredibly dangerous for pedestrians. I can't imagine walking to Harmon's from Daybreak being any better, its almost an identical development. Oh, and nothing says pedestrian friendly like crossing 10 lanes of traffic on Bangerter.

It's just a different mindset. Suburbs were designed for the car, cities were designed for walking. Even doing things better like Daybreak has doesn't change the mindset.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by brankrom

Not even overstated. I walk and take transit just about everywhere I go and I know good and not so good areas to walk.

I never walked to Harmon's from Daybreak but I did walk from Front Runner to Farmington Crossing and its a joke. You are taking your life into your own hands walking across the sea of parking at Farmington Station and the round about to get the new lifestyle center part of Station Park is incredibly dangerous for pedestrians. I can't imagine walking to Harmon's from Daybreak being any better, its almost an identical development. Oh, and nothing says pedestrian friendly like crossing 10 lanes of traffic on Bangerter.

It's just a different mindset. Suburbs were designed for the car, cities were designed for walking. Even doing things better like Daybreak has doesn't change the mindset.

Whoops.. misread you. Didn't realize you only meant "walking". You are correct. Carry on.

[brankrom]

Originally Posted by wrendog

Whoops.. misread you. Didn't realize you only meant "walking". You are correct. Carry on.

Well, I'd also argue that everyone who goes to a big box strip mall is "walking" across the parking lot. It's probably far more dangerous to drive to the Walmart and park in Suburbia than it is to walk to the store in an urban environment.

Maybe the danger element is overstated but not by much.

[delts145]

All aboard: Main Street keeps chugging as condo project approved

The Park Record - Jay Hamburger

http://www.parkrecord.com/park_city-...-condo-project


A development at 820 Park Ave. recently won an important approval from the Park City Planning Commission. It entails 10 condominiums and five commercial spaces. The developer will restore a historic building on the site and move it to a different location on the parcel. Courtesy of Scott Roberts via 820 Park Ave.

A developer in Old Town recently won the permit needed to proceed with a project at a historic railroad site, a development that will keep up the momentum along Main Street as Park City continues to enjoy a strong rebound from the worst days of the recession.

The project will be built at 820 Park Ave., steps from Main Street. It is one of the few largely vacant parcels of land on or just off Main Street. The developer, known as 820 Park Ave., LLC, is calling the project Rio Grande, a bow to the site's railroad history. A historic building on the parcel once served as a passenger depot's baggage station when a railroad line extended into what is now known as Old Town...

The Park City Planning Commission at a recent meeting approved the permit. The project entails 10 condominiums and five commercial spaces. Nearly all of the development will be within one new building. The historic building on the site now will be moved 10 feet to the west and 30 feet to the north, to a location where the developer anticipates it will occupy more prominent space. Murphy has said the historic building will be restored and turned into a commercial property. An underground garage will be built at the site...

...The project will continue an extraordinary influx of private sector investment on or just off Main Street since Park City exited the depths of the recession. There is a string of projects along Main Street, including the major renovations of the building once known as the Main Street Mall and the Silver Queen Hotel.

.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by StevenF

The problem between Daybreak and The District is that they were developed as separate developments. If I heard correctly the developer of Daybreak was extremely unhappy with South Jordan with allowing the District so close to Daybreak. Now lets act like the District does not exist and now think of how you feel about Daybreak. Daybreak is far ahead of the curve in walkability once you factor out the District completely. The District really curbed a few store options for Daybreak in the short term till the area is more built out and demand increases for retail and grocery stores.

The real question is, what will the District be like in 20-30 years? My guess it will be an old run down retail center with empty spaces much like Taylorsville's 5400 and Redwood Rd. While Daybreak will continue to have demand because of the smart build out of that area.

I don't know Steven. I'm hoping that it's excellent location, and the hyper growth of that area will lead not to it's demise, but instead evolving into a much more walkable, dense, vertical, mixed-use project. I can easily see the future need of mid-rise residential being added on top of what is now simply a wasted one story commercial. Also, along with enclosed and discreetly placed parking terraces. This is a pretty natural evolution here in L.A., as population increase creates more of a vertical demand in well located shopping districts.

I think the continued popularity of an expanding Daybreak will only serve to increase the accelerated demand of an improved District configuration. One can at least surmise. Your probably also hoping for the same evolution. In so many ways I keep seeing The Wasatch following the same positive current paths that the L.A. basin has been maturing into.

This is just my opinion, but I think that the bold faced reality is that the Wasatch Front takes a much bigger cue from Los Angeles trends than it ever will Denver or most other metros. I think that's a big positive right now, because Los Angeles trends have made huge positive changes from it's earlier boom decades. Much of the development influence of the Wasatch is being generated from a SoCal. base. Now that the Wasatch is experiencing hyper growth, it is gleaning from the positive aspects of hard lessons learned from Metro L.A.

In so many ways, the topographical effect on development of the Los Angeles basin/San Fernando Valley, is far more similar to Salt Lake City and the Wasatch CSA, than it will ever be to Denver.

Another thought, I agree that Salt Lake, Utah, Davis, and Weber Counties will fill up, but Tooele, Cedar, Summit and Wasatch are already experiencing record growth even before The Wasatch Front reaches a build out. That's likely to continue. A lot of continued growth will be taking place over the next decade on both the eastern and western flanking valleys of the CSA.

I spent the day yesterday at about the 50th floor of a high-rise here in Downtown L.A. The views were fantastic, as I gazed out over the rugged, broken terrain to the West and North. One common appreciation I share between L.A. and The Wasatch is it's rugged and diverse topography. As with Salt Lake Metro, L.A. has many large hills, mountains and bodies of water as boundaries. This is to me so much more attractive than a city built on a relative flat plain. Of course, it presents challenges, but like L.A., Salt Lake will simply build through and around the barriers. In the mean time, the Wasatch Metro will continue to be one of a small handful of the most scenically surrounded by, interspersed through major metros in the nations. IMO, the Wasatch Canyons are easily the most beautiful METRO CANYONS in No. America.

[EPdesign]

How much of the Valley is left to build on. I'm pretty sure we would have reached the edge in the next 30, maybe even 40 years and the rest of the open space would drastically go up in value. It will be interesting to see how the city starts to develop then.