Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

And the supplier hasn't been able to update the software to handle longer numbers at any time over the past 40 years?

This reminds me of ICBC's increasingly convoluted numbering and sequencing scheme for license plates which I've always assumed has something do to with the difficulty of upgrading their IBM mainframe systems to handle longer numbers.



I assume they have a separate computer system which manages the maintenance requirements and records. Presumably it doesn't have the same numbering limitation as the train control system does.

Apparently, in the control room the new 5 car trains look like this


Artsy.net

[madog222]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

And the supplier hasn't been able to update the software to handle longer numbers at any time over the past 40 years?

Perhaps it will be when the new Operation Control Centre is in service.

[Mac Write]

The question have how many train sets have been built, hasn't been ansewered. I know we have one "Test Train" to work out the bugs and then fix those bugs and flaws in the production units, but with that 6021 train and us having train 6011, It seems production has been underway for a better part of 2023 through 2024.

Why did we get 6011-6015? why didn't we get 6001-6005?

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Why did we get 6011-6015? why didn't we get 6001-6005?

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

See numbering convention discussion above.
Train number is the first 3 digits of the 4 digit number.
Car numbers seem to always start with a "1" as the 3rd digit

So "600-601" doesn't conform.
"601-602" does conform.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

And the supplier hasn't been able to update the software to handle longer numbers at any time over the past 40 years?

I thought it still ran from 5.25 floppies

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Weird, but understandable to fit in the system - but then how are cars 3, 4 and 5 tracked in the system (just as part of the train?)

Originally Posted by madog222

The 4 car Mark III trains were numbered sequentially with the train number being made from the two end cars

Maybe with this data point about how the Mark IIIs are actually handled in the system as the two end cars (with the middle cars not controlled), technically the numbering permits the same to then be done to the Mark Vs. So perhaps this makes more sense?

Existing Mark I: 001-002-003-004-005-006
Existing Mark II: 201-202-203-204
Existing Mark III: 401-402-403-404
*NEW* Mark V: 6011-6022-6023-6024-6025

[sweetnhappy]

This is what I assumed when I first read about the pattern in the numbering system. It's unfortunate that it's not more obvious/straightforward to understand. I bet many people will continue to become confused at seeing it before an explanation is provided.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by nname

About 85m

2 Mk3? You mean MkII? Mk3 is 4 cars... and 2 of them is 8 car trains, so around 136m...

Ya, I get my MK trains mixed up. Anyway, the 85m is the answer I was looking for. Thanks for the info.

[Mac Write]

So I think I finally figured it all out. 6011, 6022, 6023, 6024, 6025 is what train was tested and what train was delivered. I think the 6011 is to say it's testing and once in service will be changed to 6021 (hopefully)

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

So I think I finally figured it all out. 6011, 6022, 6023, 6024, 6025 is what train was tested and what train was delivered. I think the 6011 is to say it's testing and once in service will be changed to 6021 (hopefully)

There is no, and will be no, vehicle 6021. Train ID 602 is made up of vehicles 6011-6022-6023-6024-6025.

Train ID 604 will be made up of vehicles 6031-6042-6043-6044-6045.

nname already explained how the numbering scheme works.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Existing Mark III: 401-402-403-404

There's only one ID per consist, and it's the highest even number, so that Mark III is train ID 404. However, there's an assumption that there is always an odd numbered vehicle paired with the even number, so in that case it would be 403 & 404.
Likewise for the Mark V it will be 601 & 602, then 603 & 604.

This train ID numbering is just how the control computer keeps track of train positions and route assignments. For other systems (such as passenger alarms or fault reporting), it will use the full 4-digit vehicle number to specify exactly which vehicle needs attention.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

So I think I finally figured it all out. 6011, 6022, 6023, 6024, 6025 is what train was tested and what train was delivered. I think the 6011 is to say it's testing and once in service will be changed to 6021 (hopefully)

Nope, if the above explanation of numbering is correct then numbering the first car "6021" would mean that the train control system would see the train as consisting of cars "602" and "602" (1st 3 digits of the 1st two cars). That's a no-no, can't have two different cars with the same number in the system.

Ya gotta wonder why they even bothered with 4-digit numbers. Why not just number the first train 601-602-603-604-605? Unless they really are expecting the train control system to support 4-digit numbers in the future and they're kind of setting the stage for it.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Ya gotta wonder why they even bothered with 4-digit numbers. Why not just number the first train 601-602-603-604-605? Unless they really are expecting the train control system to support 4-digit numbers in the future and they're kind of setting the stage for it.

Because you can't have a train with ID 605. That's not the high even number of an odd/even pair.

[nname]

Maybe it would be less confusing if they opt for something that's commonly used for some intercity trains, something like:
601A-601B-602C-602B-602A

Then it would have the correct train number, as well as a suffix indicate which type of car it is (A=end car, C=center car, etc)

But then maybe they felt adding letters would be too confusing, or some part of the system cannot accept non-numeric digits...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by dpogue

Because you can't have a train with ID 605. That's not the high even number of an odd/even pair.

It's not obvious to me why that's a thing, since apparently the current system uses only two cars such as 401-402. Wouldn't it just use 601-602 from a sequentially numbered 5-car train?

But even if it is then why not 601-602-603-604-606? That's a lot less convoluted than the scheme they've got going with the 4-digit numbers.

[Mac Write]

Someone please contact RTBC and or the buzzer blog and just ask how the new numbering system will work, before all of our heads explode (literally). I am getting a serious migraine from all of this numbering stuff.

[madog222]

It has been explained multiple times now how and why the numbering system works including by one user who sounds to have first hand knowledge of the control system. BCRTC doesn’t care if the numbering is slightly counterintuitive and annoys a minority of the extremely small fraction of the general population that even thinks about this. They need new trains that work with the 40 year old infrastructure, ultimately that is all that matters.

This conversation has really run its course, I don’t see any reason it needs to continue. If anyone insists on sharing their own numbering scheme, how it is better, and how they intend to have it run on a 1980s computer system can do so in the Transit Fantasy thread.

[harls]

B1M posted a video on the Broadway tunnel this morning:

• Video Link

[Vantage]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

why not 601-602-603-604-606?

Partly because that wouldn't allow all Mark V car numbers to start with a 6 since there are more than 100 cars in the order.

[jollyburger]

So you can't reroute a BRT for a day?

“A BRT line would literally divide Hastings Street in two and visually divide it as well, making it all but impossible to host car-free street festivals as we’ve done since the 1980s,” says the BIA’s website.

“The idea of accommodating possible West Vancouver and Metrotown transit riders at the expense of inconveniencing our local, active, daily shoppers is of concern to us.”

https://www.burnabynow.com/local-new...vocate-8605366

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

So you can't reroute a BRT for a day?

What do they do with the R5 currently?