Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I've read Wikipedia and more too.

Reading the Bible and history in general, is more often than not, Jewish Israelis have been expelled from the area. Nothing lasts forever.

If you've actually read history, anybody making a claim today (based on history) has a real longshot.

Let's go back in time.

1. Israel.
2. British Mandate.
3. Ottoman Empire.
4. Mamluks
5. Ayubids (Arab-Kurdish dynasty)
6. Kingdom of Jerusalem.
7. Umayyad and Fatimid Empires
8. Sassanid Empire
9. Byzantine Empire
10. Roman Empire
11. Hasmonean Kingdom
12. Seleucid Empire
13. Macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great
14. Persian Empire
15. Babylonian Empire

And from here we get into the kingdoms mentioned in the Bible including the Kingdom of Israel, the Kingdom of Israel and Judah, the theocracies of the Twelve Tribes and the Canaanite city-kingdoms.

And this is the problem with using history to try and solve claims like these. Whose history are we to use? For the last 4000 years, there's never really been a Palestinian state of any kind or any actual ethnicity of Palestinians. They are all just various flavours of Arabs living across the Levant under some Kingdom or Empire administering the place.

All this is to say, there's no point using history to argue entitlement to a piece of dirt today. Especially in a place where so many empires washed over the place, bringing their influences.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I think you answered your own question, Acajack.

Even if you think one specific dude is engaged in shenanigans, Gaza has been bombed to an incomprehensible level of destruction in 35 days.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675

Why is this an "incomprehensible level of destruction" to you? Do you not read history?

[IMG]view-from-dresden-rathaus by bcborn, on Flickr[/IMG]
Credit: Deutsche Fotothek

Inside The Dresden Bombing And The Apocalyptic Firestorm That Turned The City Into A Wasteland
By Erin Kelly | Edited By Adam Farley
Published October 1, 2021
Updated August 19, 2022

Less than three months before Germany surrendered in World War II, the Allies' four-day firebombing of Dresden leveled the city center and killed 25,000 people, mostly civilians...

https://allthatsinteresting.com/dresden-bombing#2

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I remember talking to an Israeli military strategist about 15 years ago, met via my ex at a (groan) "cousins club" type of event. He admitted the only solution was to remove all Palestinians from Israel/Gaza/WB. He and the cousins said I was stupid and perhaps racist for suggesting all Palestinians convert to Jewish or Christianity as means to solve the problem. Maybe they could all convert to Pacifist Mennonites?! (As I understand it, DNA has proven many Palestinians are actually Semites and possibly one of the lost tribes ... explains a lot if accurate.)

I guess I should not be surprised that you thought it was perfectly okay to suggest cultural genocide as a solution? After all you had the same idea for the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Do you actually understand that culture and nationhood goes beyond DNA?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you've actually read history, anybody making a claim today (based on history) has a real longshot.

Let's go back in time.

1. Israel.
2. British Mandate.
3. Ottoman Empire.
4. Mamluks
5. Ayubids (Arab-Kurdish dynasty)
6. Kingdom of Jerusalem.
7. Umayyad and Fatimid Empires
8. Sassanid Empire
9. Byzantine Empire
10. Roman Empire
11. Hasmonean Kingdom
12. Seleucid Empire
13. Macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great
14. Persian Empire
15. Babylonian Empire

And from here we get into the kingdoms mentioned in the Bible including the Kingdom of Israel, the Kingdom of Israel and Judah, the theocracies of the Twelve Tribes and the Canaanite city-kingdoms.

And this is the problem with using history to try and solve claims like these. Whose history are we to use? For the last 4000 years, there's never really been a Palestinian state of any kind or any actual ethnicity of Palestinians. They are all just various flavours of Arabs living across the Levant under some Kingdom or Empire administering the place.

All this is to say, there's no point using history to argue entitlement to a piece of dirt today. Especially in a place where so many empires washed over the place, bringing their influences.

It's noteworthy that the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which I believe is the second holiest building in Islam and the holiest site outside of Mecca, is located on the Temple Mount so basically on top of a Jewish temple or temples that were there probably 1000 years before the mosque itself.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's noteworthy that the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which I believe is the second holiest building in Islam and the holiest site outside of Mecca, is located on the Temple Mount so basically on top of a Jewish temple or temples that were there probably 1000 years before the mosque itself.

Jerusalem will be the key battleground as part of the end times, when the world turns on Israel, at pretty much that spot if I'm not mistaken. Russia also plays a lead role in the attempt to destroy Israel and the Jewish people, with references of Rosh, Gog and Magog as being Russian in origin. This Israel Hamas war is only a prelude to things to come.

[Wigs]

Source:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/f...r-blinken-says

[whatnext]

Blinken's trying to keep the far left of the Democratic party onside. He knows Hamas is using those in Gaza as human shields, they don't care about those Palestinian lives

Meanwhile some more details on the Israelis massacred by Palestinian terrorists on October 7:

I landed in Israel and went straight to a funeral.

It was at a small cemetery surrounded by cypress trees and flowering bougainvillea. Being laid to rest were Dana Bachar, a kindergarten teacher, and Carmel, her 15-year-old son, who loved the waves. They were murdered by Hamas terrorists in Kibbutz Be’eri, near Gaza. Carmel was buried with his surfboard while his father, Avida, who had lost a leg in the attack and was in a wheelchair, looked on and wept.

Several hundred people were present, friends and strangers alike. The mourners were distinctly secular and, in their dress, casual. Be’eri was well known for its pro-peace sympathies: It had a special fund to give financial help to Gazans who came to the kibbutz on work permits, and kibbutzniks would often volunteer to drive sick Palestinians to an oncology center in southern Israel.

“They were to the left of Meretz” is how one leading Israeli political figure described the kibbutz’s political sympathies, referring to the most progressive political party in Israel. Hamas must have known this. It butchered the people there all the same. The group may have had several objectives on Oct. 7, from derailing an Israeli-Saudi peace deal to getting Hezbollah to open a second front. But not the least of its aims was to kill Jews for its own sake, to instill a sense of terror so visceral and vivid that it would imprint itself on Israel’s psyche for generations. In that, it has succeeded....

....Later, at an army headquarters in Tel Aviv, I was given a private screening of some 46 minutes of footage of the events of Oct. 7, assembled from security cameras, smartphone videos recorded by victims and survivors, and the GoPro footage taken by the terrorists themselves. I watched as one terrorist casually murdered a father with a hand grenade and then raided his fridge while two orphaned boys whimpered in fear. I watched another who tried to behead a wounded Thai field worker with a garden hoe while shouting “Allahu akbar.” I listened to a third who, in a phone call to his parents, boasted, “I killed more than 10 Jews with my bare hands!”....(bold mine)

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/o...al-crisis.html

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Some more craziness in Ottawa now.

https://twitter.com/Mielly007/status...67878272819332

The amount of antisemitic hate crimes and attacks happening here in Canada as of late is incredibly worrying and discouraging. I really sympathize with the innocent Jewish people currently facing abuse and fearing for their safety. Putting aside how morally reprehensible it is to target Jews simply for being Jews, regardless of their position on the current conflict, the thing that shocks me the most is that some on the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel side actually think this madness somehow helps the cause.

As someone with some Muslim background who generally considers themself pro-Palestinian (advocate of a peaceful two-state solution), I really wish the Muslim community did more to denounce these attacks. That's not to say all Muslims are collectively guilty or complicit in the crimes, but I think it would go a long way in discouraging and mitigating further attacks. This stuff especially bothers me when I think of all the Jewish people who've stood up over the years to call out Israeli crimes and injustices in support of the Palestinians. My faith in humanity is waning by the day.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

Jerusalem will be the key battleground as part of the end times, when the world turns on Israel, at pretty much that spot if I'm not mistaken. Russia also plays a lead role in the attempt to destroy Israel and the Jewish people, with references of Rosh, Gog and Magog as being Russian in origin. This Israel Hamas war is only a prelude to things to come.

This is exactly the problem, a death cult has taken control of many “Christian” denominations.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

All this is to say, there's no point using history to argue entitlement to a piece of dirt today. Especially in a place where so many empires washed over the place, bringing their influences.

I invite you to explain this reasoning to the first nations.

[kwoldtimer]

I may be off for saying this, but I find that these random acts (abhorent, unacceptable and needing to be dealt with) are being magnified into something more widespread by mainstream and social media. I doubt society is any more anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic than it was before the Hamas terror attack on Israel, but you'd think we were headed toward another Kristallnact. The risk is there, always, but keep calm and carry on seems to me to be the best approach.

[casper]

Originally Posted by acottawa

This is exactly the problem, a death cult has taken control of many “Christian” denominations.

We should be concerned the influence those denominations are having in US politics.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's noteworthy that the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which I believe is the second holiest building in Islam and the holiest site outside of Mecca, is located on the Temple Mount so basically on top of a Jewish temple or temples that were there probably 1000 years before the mosque itself.

The Temple Mount had been vacant for hundreds of years (destroyed by he Romans in 70 CE) before the Muslims built a mosque on it in 691 CE. That temple was built in 516 BCE. There was possibly another temple on the site before that, but no archeological evidence has ever been found of it.

So it was a temple for about 600 years, vacant for almost 700 years, and had been a mosque for 1300 years.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I may be off for saying this, but I find that these random acts (abhorent, unacceptable and needing to be dealt with) are being magnified into something more widespread by mainstream and social media. I doubt society is any more anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic than it was before the Hamas terror attack on Israel, but you'd think we were headed toward another Kristallnact. The risk is there, always, but keep calm and carry on seems to me to be the best approach.

Everything related to this conflict is under the media microscope at the moment, so you're probably right in saying that these acts may appear more prevalent than they actually are. However, police in multiple jurisdictions have reported a sharp rise in hate-related incidents, especially antisemitic incidents, so there is some data to back this up. There's also been a reported rise in Muslim/Arab/Palestinian hate crimes, but to a lesser degree.

I'm just worried about this spiralling into something worse.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Temple Mount had been vacant for hundreds of years (destroyed by he Romans in 70 CE) before the Muslims built a mosque on it in 691 CE. That temple was built in 516 BCE. There was possibly another temple on the site before that, but no archeological evidence has ever been found of it.

So it was a temple for about 600 years, vacant for almost 700 years, and had been a mosque for 1300 years.

It’s very important holy site in Judaism it’s where the foundation stone is located, it was never “vacant”. Israel even limits the amount of Jews that can access the site and they cannot even go inside the dome.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by casper

We should be concerned the influence those denominations are having in US politics.

Not just US politics. They have an unbelievable amount power and reach on the global stage, all underpinned by deep pockets and religious lunacy. The below mini doc does a good job of covering just how extensive their impact has been on Israeli politics and West Bank settlements.

• Video Link

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

The amount of antisemitic hate crimes and attacks happening here in Canada as of late is incredibly worrying and discouraging. I really sympathize with the innocent Jewish people currently facing abuse and fearing for their safety. Putting aside how morally reprehensible it is to target Jews simply for being Jews, regardless of their position on the current conflict, the thing that shocks me the most is that some on the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel side actually think this madness somehow helps the cause.

As someone with some Muslim background who generally considers themself pro-Palestinian (advocate of a peaceful two-state solution), I really wish the Muslim community did more to denounce these attacks. That's not to say all Muslims are collectively guilty or complicit in the crimes, but I think it would go a long way in discouraging and mitigating further attacks. This stuff especially bothers me when I think of all the Jewish people who've stood up over the years to call out Israeli crimes and injustices in support of the Palestinians. My faith in humanity is waning by the day.

Any race or religious based attacks are abhorrent and should be punished.

If a restaurant has an Israeli flat it is certainly fair game for peaceful protest if you are arguing Israel is committing war crimes or even genocide. I doubt we would accept a Russian flag being flown for example at any business.

Many have the same view of the Palestinian flag being waived so soon after such a heinous terrorist attack. Peaceful protest against both seems fair and is neither anti-semitic nor islamaphobic even if many protesting might lean towards those views.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Any race or religious based attacks are abhorrent and should be punished.

If a restaurant has an Israeli flat it is certainly fair game for peaceful protest if you are arguing Israel is committing war crimes or even genocide. I doubt we would accept a Russian flag being flown for example at any business.

Many have the same view of the Palestinian flag being waived so soon after such a heinous terrorist attack. Peaceful protest against both seems fair and is neither anti-semitic nor islamaphobic even if many protesting might lean towards those views.

I have no issues with peaceful protest and oppose attempts to conflate them with race or religious-based hate. I'm specifically talking about actual reported hate crimes that have been on the rise.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Hecate

It’s very important holy site in Judaism it’s where the foundation stone is located, it was never “vacant”. Israel even limits the amount of Jews that can access the site and they cannot even go inside the dome.

After Constantine demolished the Temple of Jupiter it was vacant. There were certainly no Jews around, they were banned from entering the city by the Romans after the Third Revolt and the Byzantines. It was the Muslims who allowed Jews back into the city.

[casper]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Any race or religious based attacks are abhorrent and should be punished.

If a restaurant has an Israeli flat it is certainly fair game for peaceful protest if you are arguing Israel is committing war crimes or even genocide. I doubt we would accept a Russian flag being flown for example at any business.

Many have the same view of the Palestinian flag being waived so soon after such a heinous terrorist attack. Peaceful protest against both seems fair and is neither anti-semitic nor islamaphobic even if many protesting might lean towards those views.

I would be incline to say the Israeli restaurant should be left alone. All its doing is promoting a type of food. It is a country we have diplomatic relations with and legal trade with. The same would go for a Palestinian or Russian restaurant. What outcome are the protestors expecting out of protesting in front of an ethic restaurant? That they change their menu? While it may be miss guided, it should not be illegal as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

I agree, we live in a free society and people are free to protest whatever they disagree with.

Larger protest in a public space like a square is about drawing attention and possibly support for your cause.