Old Town/Chinatown News

[WestCoast]

I'm not going to get into this on an Internet forum, because it's a complete waste of all our time.


*I'm with Pacific NW, we're here because of architecture and development, not social problems. Nothing good will come of this debate, so I'm deleting my comments made today and leaving it at that.*

[bvpcvm]

^ the the question is this: how do you define free-loaders? or what are your criteria at which someone goes from being a "worthy" recipient of assistance and crosses over into being "unworthy"? i would imagine that you would agree that someone who can't afford health insurance and is diagnosed with breast cancer is not freeloading by asking for assistance. or at least i would be surprised if you would consider that freeloading. so where's the border? at which point is someone's need no longer legitimate? how, in a society where everyone has rights to privacy and freedom, do you somehow define in a consistent, bias-free way, a point at which a legitimate need becomes illegitimate?

[PacificNW]

I have decided to delete my input to this discussion....

[Okstate]

How do you guys feel about the "kids" that seem ok in the head but still loiter the streets with a very "strong presence". I understand we can look, say, and practically get away with any form of demonstration we wish. However, we have got to acknowledge that some folks scare other folks away. I personally believe that a "few" are keeping away "many". What should we do with those "few"? I guess nothing. As for the mentally challenged, our government has got to step up and take better care of their citizens.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by Okstate

How do you guys feel about the "kids" that seem ok in the head but still loiter the streets with a very "strong presence". I understand we can look, say, and practically get away with any form of demonstration we wish. However, we have got to acknowledge that some folks scare other folks away. I personally believe that a "few" are keeping away "many". What should we do with those "few"? I guess nothing. As for the mentally challenged, our government has got to step up and take better care of their citizens.

Street kids are a much-maligned but harmless part of Portland. People complain about them, but bad things generally happen only after the street kids have left the area for the day/night.

[philopdx]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

^ the the question is this: how do you define free-loaders? or what are your criteria at which someone goes from being a "worthy" recipient of assistance and crosses over into being "unworthy"? i would imagine that you would agree that someone who can't afford health insurance and is diagnosed with breast cancer is not freeloading by asking for assistance. or at least i would be surprised if you would consider that freeloading. so where's the border? at which point is someone's need no longer legitimate? how, in a society where everyone has rights to privacy and freedom, do you somehow define in a consistent, bias-free way, a point at which a legitimate need becomes illegitimate?

No system is perfect, but you do the best you can. In a system where "from each according to his ability and to each according to his need" is the mantra of choice, ability becomes a liability and need becomes a coveted asset. When economic and social policies fail to reflect reality in ANY way, aggregate economic output will probably stagnante.

Example:
REALITY: More children = less disposable income
UNREALITY: More children = more disposable income!

REALITY: If I don't work, I can't eat.
UNREALITY: If I don't work, I get free food!

While every modern industrialized nation fulfills its social contract by providing a safety net (in many cases one more robust than ours), a government failing to provide proper incentives and disincentives for certain behavior will induce people to act according to their own best interest, not the interest of the collective.

Such is the sad irony of institutionalized collectivism, the legacy of which are the stunning economic successes of Cuba, North Korea and The Soviet Union.

[bvpcvm]

absolutely. no one's advocating a soviet system here. westCoast said something like he was sick of "freeloaders" (he's since deleted his comment) and my reply was, sure ok, so how do you define "freeloaders"? my point was not just give away the farm to everybody, but that assuming we want a safety net, you have to have standards in place which don't take into account the applicant's off-putting personality or unusual fashion sense or whatever. the system should be entirely neutral with regard to personal quirks. it should be cold and rational. blanket condemnation of people as "freeloaders" is an emotional response and as such, is unhelpful.

[alexjon]

I can assure all of you that the load they get for free isn't much. It's like saying "we'll buy you a house and give you a job" and then handing someone a flyer from a homebuilder and expecting them to get it themselves.

[cab]

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...re_in_por.html
Uwajimaya may put store in Portland's Old Town/Chinatown
by Laura Gunderson, The Oregonian
Tuesday July 01, 2008, 8:04 AM

Prospects of an Asian superstore generates excitement among neighbors and business leaders

Uwajimaya Inc., a Seattle-based group of Asian superstores famous for crammed shelves of produce, seafood, delicacies and sundries, is considering a new apt outpost in Portland's new Chinatown/Japantown Historic District.

Combined with office and educational developments in the neighborhood, a Uwajimaya store would add a retail destination of a scale not seen there since the multifloor, warehouse-style Import Plaza closed in 2000.

Fans of Uwajimaya (pronounced ew-wa-ji-maya) typically carve out time to visit the supermarket; newcomers go out of their way to see it. The prospect of an anchor retailer with such a customer draw and Asian roots excites many of the district's business leaders and retailers. They say it would be just the sort of boost the neighborhood needs.

"We try so hard to develop Old Town while keeping its history," said Stephen Ying, president of the Chinese American Citizen Alliance. "This would be a tremendous help to Chinatown."

The Portland City Council earmarked $10 million in city-backed loans in a proposed budget for the estimated $80 million project. Designed for what is now a surface parking lot at Northwest Couch Street between Fourth and Fifth avenues, the development would include 140 mixed-income apartments on seven upper floors.

The store would be Uwajimaya's second in the Portland area and its fourth total; the company operates two in the Seattle area. Uwajimaya Plaza opened a decade ago in a former 30,000-square-foot Best hardware store along Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway and quickly drew a loyal following to its grocery aisles, restaurant and spaces for books and gifts.

Uwajimaya's popularity probably has benefited from a national trend that saw U.S. retail sales of Asian foods increase 27.3 percent from 2000 to 2004, according to market researcher Packaged Facts of Rockville, Md. The report hooks the growth to a growing Asian American population and the nation's increasingly worldly tastes.

Doug Obletz, whose Sockeye Development is expected to make a more in-depth presentation on the project to the Portland Development Commission this week, aims to put final agreements in place by year's end. He said construction could begin in late 2009.

Sockeye also owns Museum Place, a $27 million project it built at Southwest 10th Avenue and Jefferson Street. For its scale and potential impact on the neighborhood, Obletz calls the project a good template for the Uwajimaya plan. Museum Place, which took $3 million in PDC loans, features a first-floor grocery with 140 lofts and townhouses stacked above. Monthly rents range from $590 to $3,000.

"Uwajimaya would help us continue to march north with redevelopment," said Peter Englander of the PDC, which has spearheaded multiple projects aiming to reinvigorate Old Town/Chinatown.

The work includes new homes within the neighborhood for Portland Saturday Market, a University of Oregon branch campus and MercyCorps, Englander said. Coupled with the Uwajimaya store is a plan to redevelop the block across Couch Street to the south. The block abuts West Burnside and the Chinatown gate and eventually could share an underground parking lot with the grocery store.

"Uwajimaya could solidify our work," Englander said, "and light a fire within the Old Town/Chinatown neighborhood."

Obletz, of the Sockeye group, said the Uwajimaya project also could feature a second-floor courtyard, also similar to Museum Place, with retail space for a bookstore and white-tablecloth Chinese restaurant.

Unlike Museum Place, however, is the cost to build.

Obletz said construction costs have doubled -- without a proportionate rise in rents -- since Museum Place was completed in 2002. Part of that expense in Uwajimaya's case would be plans for the 300-space underground parking.

--Laura Gunderson, lauragunderson@news.oregonian.com

[zaphod]

REALITY: More children = less disposable income
UNREALITY: More children = more disposable income!

REALITY: If I don't work, I can't eat.
UNREALITY: If I don't work, I get free food!

come on, how many people in the various welfare systems actually think like that?

social programs help so many people get on their feet. Things could happen to you, how would you like to be treated like crap?

[PacificNW]

Please delete.......

[MightyAlweg]

Uwajimaya? Japantown? Portland has a Japantown? Since when?

I moved away almost 20 years ago, but I've been back to visit regularly. And I still remember the "Chinatown" in NW Portland near the river. It has the "Chinatown Gate" installed in the late 80's, and all of the red painted streetlamps with Chinese script used on the street signs. Do they still maintain the Chinese temple phone booths? And then there's the Chinese Classical Garden that opened a few years ago.

I don't remember anyone ever refering to a "Japantown", or the City Council ever incorporating any Japanese influenced design or culture into the areas revitalization in the late 20th century. It was all about "Chinatown".

Uwajimaya is a Japanese name. They are owned and operated by Japanese-Americans. Their website has a Japanese language option on it, but no Mandarin or Cantonese language option.

Japan and China are different countries, with very different cultures. Are they going to keep the Chinatown name and all of the Chinese influenced design elements added to that neighborhood in the last 25 years? Or will Portland change the name to Asiatown and just go with a neighborhood theme that takes in the entire Asian and Sub Indian continent?

Please tell me the PDC and the City Council know the difference between Japan and China.

[PacificNW]

The Naito family own large parcels of Old Town....their background is Japanese. In addition there is a Japanese Memorial (Japanese Internment Camps) in Waterfront Park close to Old Town. I think the International District in Seattle (as well as other U.S. cities) will have (or have) Chinese gate(s) but these districts represent many cultures. I think PDX's Chinatown will evolve into a similar district over the next few years. I used to shop at their store in Seattle and feel it will be an incredible addition to the scene of downtown PDX.....

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by MightyAlweg

Uwajimaya? Japantown? Portland has a Japantown? Since when?

alksdfjal;jd

WHAT.

[2oh1]

Uwajimaya would be good for the neighborhood as well as being good for downtown, period. I don't think it can happen soon enough. And if they can build it with lofts and a courtyard above, all the better. The idea sounds superb.

[twofiftyfive]

From Wikipedia:

Between the Pearl District and the Willamette is the Old Town Chinatown neighborhood...Before World War II, this area was known as Japan Town or Little Tokyo; Chinatown was previously located just south of W. Burnside St. along the riverfront.

[NewUrbanist]

...... I deleted the oregonian article as it had already been posted.

[bvpcvm]

hang on a sec, pacnw, i just wanted to add one more thing......

zaphod is entirely correct.

huge numbers of people out there, both on and off assistance, simply don't put two and two together. let me give you an example: i once worked in refugee resettlement. i worked with many families with TONS of kids (i mean, like, 8 was probably average), who, due to their extreme religious conservatism, simply could not make the connection that more kids == less money. or maybe that isn't quite the issue, maybe it's that they simply ignore the potential result. it's probably different in every single case. the upshot, whatever the reason, is that they make what appear to us to be irrational decisions. but guess what? it doesn't stop with refugees or anyone else on assistance! the middle class is full of people who have bought houses they can't afford or SUV's they can't maintain or who have run up credit card debt to unsustainable levels. so to piously say that, well, DUH, ANYONE can see that MORE KIDS = LESS MONEY, is to ignore the fact that the connection is either unclear to some people or simply ignored. and the entire point of civilization is to try keep people with mental or physical weaknesses from falling through the cracks.

ANYWAY. i apologize for pursuing this topic to this point - we have indeed left transportation and infrastructure far behind - but as you can see i have some strong opinions.

[bvpcvm]

i think - er, i HOPE - they do. my understanding was that "chinatown" had large populations of both chinese and japanese. i'm pretty sure that the memorial to japanese internment along the waterfront is there for that reason.

also, uwajimaya is japanese-owned, but it has all kinds of asian products there. tons of indian stuff, even middle eastern (they have some awesome tahini), lots of thai ingredients and chinese as well.

[pdxman]

Maybe this thread should be locked before it gets out of hand? It really doesn't have much to do with the section it is in.