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  #401  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2024, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
More than anything going on right now, the coming game of dipshit musical chairs is a great reason to stay away for the rest of the decade.

I tend to agree with those who say a different government over the last four years wouldn't have made a difference to conditions in Canada today. I live in a different country with, obviously, a different government, and we have many of the same problems.

The overarching lesson of the '20s thus far should be that we really don't have the control we thought we did. Yes, yes, pandemics and wars happen unpredictably. Predictable economic outcomes follow. But isn't migration easily controllable by policy? If it were, why would every western country struggle with it?

We generally hear two angles, "be humane and let them in", or, "let them drown and the others will learn not to come." Both are naive. Surprisingly, the most reasonable voice has come from Georgia Meloni, saying that if we want to reduce migration we have to work with the countries people are coming from to improve conditions there.

Canada, remote as it is, seems like it could reduce immigration more easily than a country like Italy. But David Cameron used to talk about reducing immigration to England to the 10s of thousands; the Tories have been consistently, in message if not in deed, anti-immigration. And yet now the UK is also seeing record immigration.

There are a few reasons. First, the Tories aren't being honest. The UK needs immigrants. So does Canada, and every other rich country with a lot of old people who need looking after, and few young people who are willing to do so at the rates we're willing to pay.

And remember how nobody could find help immediately after Covid lock downs ended? It's not yet clear that increased immigration isn't, in part, a response to latent demand.

That the market, ultimately, rules migration indicates the second reason it's a problem: it's hard for (most) governments to stop. Canada can and should close the diploma-mill path to residency. But will it make a difference? There's little more than the cost of a flight stopping anyone from entering the country, crashing at a friend or relative's place, and finding work in the gig economy.

Canada's private sponsorship program actually does a good job of bringing people legally into the country through this avenue.

Every city in Europe, I should add, also has Indian dudes on ebikes doing deliveries. Canada, once again, is not unique.

Finally, there's the push behind migration. Things aren't great in developing countries either. Between the climate crisis and Cold War 2, things suck and are getting worse in a lot of places. And then there are the fascists, Modi and Xi, making people miserable in the world's two largest countries.


Bringing this back around to musical dipshits, would a conservative government right now produce a better outcome? The evidence says no.

The evidence also says that Polievre has no game beyond culture wars and blaming the people in charge. Blaming people in charge stops working once you're in charge. And if Canada were to continue down the road to culture wars, so soon after the Americans have shown us how it ends with Ron Desantis breaking his high heels marching on the Disneyland Matterhorn, now that would be mediocrity manifest.
Great post. Glad to see you back!
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  #402  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2024, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I am not convinced a slide into mediocrity is not a worldwide trend. It is hard to think of many places that are better than they were 10 years ago. Maybe some countries are sliding slower than Canada.
The western world is aging rapidly and therefore there is less youth which means less optimism, less vitality, less hope for the future and more cynicism, regret and anger.
Africa still has this vitality that west has lost so not all hope is lost.
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  #403  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2024, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
The western world is aging rapidly and therefore there is less youth which means less optimism, less vitality, less hope for the future and more cynicism, regret and anger.
Africa still has this vitality that west has lost so not all hope is lost.
Totally disagree. I find younger people tend to be more negative and less optimistic than my 80-something mother and her friends (excluding health issues!).
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  #404  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Totally disagree. I find younger people tend to be more negative and less optimistic than my 80-something mother and her friends (excluding health issues!).
Yes agreed I`d say the pre boomers, then Gen X, then Boomers and last Millenials and Gen Z in terms of optimism.
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  #405  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Totally disagree. I find younger people tend to be more negative and less optimistic than my 80-something mother and her friends (excluding health issues!).
I would postulate that the media is catering to the ever growing older demographic and is therefore more cynical generally which influence the younger generation to aslo be more negative.
the root is still the rapidly aging population.
Demographic collapse in the west is just getting started so i see this trend accelerating in the future

Last edited by Nite; Mar 13, 2024 at 12:32 AM.
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  #406  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Canada is far, far too much of a decentralized, multi-regional and parochial nation. This trend is progressively worsening. In the long run, this trend will destroy the country.

How do you combat this? The only real way is with a well run, well funded and overtly patriotic nationalist propaganda program. We have to become as jingoistic as the Americans are. Arizonans, Alabamans and Mainers have preecious little in common, but, God-damned it, they are all Americans and fucking proud of it too!!! America is a tremendously flawed society, but they have a profound sense of national purpose and national destiny.

Canada needs a bit of this at least. It would help to broaden support for nation building infrastructure projects and divert attention away from navel-gazing woe-is-me social justice activism and petty regional grievances.........

Canada doesn't have a Captain America, an Uncle Sam or a Yankee Doodle Dandy. Maybe we should! Americans believe in the mythos of a George Washington who never told a lie. John A. MacDonald on the other hand is remembered as a drunk who single handedly was responsible for destroying first nations culture with the residential school system. Neither characterization is accurate, but which one is more constructive for the national psyche???
Can't wait for Pierre Poilievre to to breakup and sell of the various parts of the CBC to, most likely, American interest.
This should be great in reducing factionalism in Canada to get rid of the chief source of canadian made media to the masses in the country and the end of money losing local coverage
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  #407  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
Canada, as I've known it, has always been expensive and paternalistic. It has never offered a great public realm or excellent social services in return. You can call that mediocrity if you like, but the reasons I left are the reasons I'll stay gone.

For what it's worth, if you're dismayed by Canada, you should see England. Try to breath in London without someone charging you for it. I attribute the things I don't like about Canada more to Anglo culture in general than anything uniquely Canadian. I don't want to live bowed under a greed tempered only by cheapness, I don't want to expect endlessly less for more, and I don't want to accept the relentless enshitification of everything good. I'm sure many of you don't.

It's like the compact between all of us to make valuable things and exchange them with the people who value them the most is broken. People with infinite money don't value anything and, therefore, have no obligation to produce anything valuable. Hence automation. Try to do anything, make anything, trade anything, these days without running into some garbage-ass, fundamentally broken automated process. "But we have to use them or we'll fall behind". Fine. Leave us behind then. Just fuck off with all the shit we don't want. Let us save our resources for those who will do us the dignity of actually being human and, in the process, treating us like humans.

But that's another story. The point is, Canada isn't alone. The world is getting worse. Life is getting worse. Germany may suit me better, but it's still a country trying to patch up its public services after 15 years of conservative austerity, and the people are ready to vote for another round. Nearby countries more committed to social democracy seem to be doing better. Even France, when it's not tearing itself apart, seems to be doing better. But maybe that's just me peeking over the fence. I do know that everyone is dealing with the Covid-spending hangover, increasing migration, climate change, Russian misinformation, farmers' protests, Republicans, Sam Altman, Elon Musk, Trump... I could go on. And we'll just have to. In a few years things will hopefully be better--no thanks to the people in power at the time, who will give themselves credit and continue to make things worse.

The diagnoses and prescriptions on this page aren't going to turn Canada into a place I'd move back to. They'd probably do the opposite. Realistically, it would take widespread war or AMOC collapse to make me leave Europe. Unfortunately, both are likely.
Canadian want European level of services for their taxes but without paying European levels of taxation for it.
I am including the public realm as part of these services by the way.

Last edited by Nite; Mar 13, 2024 at 1:29 AM.
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  #408  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Totally disagree. I find younger people tend to be more negative and less optimistic than my 80-something mother and her friends (excluding health issues!).
+1

Agree 100%. The younger generation have ridiculous expectations and want everything handed to them on a silver platter without actually putting in the work to achieve them. When their reality doesn't match their entitlement them predictably become angry, resentful, negative, pessimistic, and complain about everything imaginable. And of course, it's never their fault, so they just point the finger elsewhere ..... usually at the generations that came before them.

And the arguments about inheriting a polluted planet in decline ring quite hollow when 95% of them think nothing of replacing their phone every 2-3 years or flying down to Florida in February. It's arguably even less excusable since they know how damaging it is but do it any way.
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  #409  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 1:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Other people have more eloquently summarized the problem with Canada, so let me summarize the problem with Toronto.

The thing I hate about Toronto is that there are basically two levers at two different settings:

Lever 1 is "population growth" and Lever 2 is "infrastructure, amenities and stature".

For about 30 years, Lever 1 was stuck at a 5 and Lever 2 was at a 0 or 1.

And then governments of all stripes agree to start finally investing in this city and shift Lever 2 up to maybe a 5, but then the Feds crank immigration and Lever 1 is now at 11. FWIW, Lever 2 can't operate at 11.

I'm holding out two hopes:

(1) That the next Federal government brings immigration back to pre-2015 levels, while the key public and private players maintain the momentum in infrastructure and "cool, big city things" (so, not just new transit lines, but also things like the waterfront/West Don Lands, new neighbourhoods, grand buildings by international architects and supertalls, etc.).

(2) That we might just be living in the worst possible Toronto since there are so many definitional projects in the works, but they're all currently dusty construction sites that generate noise and congestion and that we cannot use.
Lever 2 has only moved up thanks to increase funding by the federal government to spend on these projects in Toronto. without federal money none of these projects would have gotten off the ground. so a change in government will likely return lever 2 to a 0 or a 1.

Why do you think transit projects in this country pretty much came to a standstill for 2 decades until the current federal government came in and started spending on transit projects all across the country.
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  #410  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 1:26 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
We're definitely catching up.

Just based on the timescales of planning and building megaprojects, everything that has shovels in the ground in Toronto was conceived at least ten years ago, in some form or the other. These projects reflect the problems planners identified at that time.

None of the projects that are even in the early planning stages reflect the Toronto of Trudeau-era immigration levels.
But it is the Trudeau's government which is funding these projects. there is always plans for mega projects in Canada but nothing happens unless the federal government is willing to spend on these projects. None of current plans would have been released with out the current Liberal Federal government wanting to invest transit as part of their climate action plan.
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  #411  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 1:53 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
+1

Agree 100%. The younger generation have ridiculous expectations and want everything handed to them on a silver platter without actually putting in the work to achieve them. When their reality doesn't match their entitlement them predictably become angry, resentful, negative, pessimistic, and complain about everything imaginable. And of course, it's never their fault, so they just point the finger elsewhere ..... usually at the generations that came before them.

And the arguments about inheriting a polluted planet in decline ring quite hollow when 95% of them think nothing of replacing their phone every 2-3 years or flying down to Florida in February. It's arguably even less excusable since they know how damaging it is but do it any way.

Amazing that you blame younger generations for entitlement, when this whole country's economy is getting cannibalised by the residential real estate super bubble just to keep boomer retirement accounts afloat, so the boomers can retire with golden eggs. Guess what, the masses flying down to Florida every February are the boomer snowbirds, not the younger Canadians struggling to afford sky high rent who doesn't even have vacation days or extra cash to spare.
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  #412  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Canadian want European level of services for their taxes but without paying European levels of taxation for it.
I am including the public realm as part of these services by the way.



When I looked into the move, it became clear that the taxation difference between Stockholm and Toronto would likely wind up being like 2-3%, all-in.
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  #413  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Totally disagree. I find younger people tend to be more negative and less optimistic than my 80-something mother and her friends (excluding health issues!).

When was the last time an 80 year old invented something, discovered a new theorem, came up with a cultural innovation of some sort, etc.

As an example, Einstein made most of his major contributions in his 20s and 30s did very little professionally after 40.
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  #414  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
The western world is aging rapidly and therefore there is less youth which means less optimism, less vitality, less hope for the future and more cynicism, regret and anger.
Africa still has this vitality that west has lost so not all hope is lost.
The Eastern world is aging even faster.

Africa has youth, but I wonder if they have the institutional structures to produce innovation with that youth.
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  #415  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Lever 2 has only moved up thanks to increase funding by the federal government to spend on these projects in Toronto. without federal money none of these projects would have gotten off the ground. so a change in government will likely return lever 2 to a 0 or a 1.

Why do you think transit projects in this country pretty much came to a standstill for 2 decades until the current federal government came in and started spending on transit projects all across the country.
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
But it is the Trudeau's government which is funding these projects. there is always plans for mega projects in Canada but nothing happens unless the federal government is willing to spend on these projects. None of current plans would have been released with out the current Liberal Federal government wanting to invest transit as part of their climate action plan.
What are you on about? The transit construction boom in Ontario had its foundations laid and begun by the last provincial government. The Ford Conservatives have been quite enthusiastic about it, and have made transit development a major plank of their government. Federal funding has helped. But the Harper Government was funding transit construction too and definitely would have continued post-2015 if they were re-elected. Indeed, if we had a government that didn't run up $100B in deficits before COVID and then ramp up immigration to insane levels post-Covid, we might have more funding and more breathing room to close the infrastructure gap.
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  #416  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
What are you on about? The transit construction boom in Ontario had its foundations laid and begun by the last provincial government. The Ford Conservatives have been quite enthusiastic about it, and have made transit development a major plank of their government. Federal funding has helped. But the Harper Government was funding transit construction too and definitely would have continued post-2015 if they were re-elected. Indeed, if we had a government that didn't run up $100B in deficits before COVID and then ramp up immigration to insane levels post-Covid, we might have more funding and more breathing room to close the infrastructure gap.
Exactly. The Trudeau government hasn't shown any leadership on infrastructure. Like all previous Federal governments before them, they just cut checks after provincial and municipal governments have already championed the plans and put up money first.

The immigration firehose is showering people all over the country and most of these immigrants disproportionately settle in bigger cities but, when it comes to keeping up with investment in infrastructure to maintain this absurd growth rate, cities are at the mercy of the benevolence of their provincial governments.

If BC refuses to invest in upgrading its threadbare highway system, or Nova Scotia refuses to invest in public transit in a Halifax that posted a 4.4% increase in population, the Feds don't step up to the plate.
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  #417  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 3:59 PM
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And on the one transport agency that they actually control (VIA) they failed to deliver their signature project (HFR).
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  #418  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
When I looked into the move, it became clear that the taxation difference between Stockholm and Toronto would likely wind up being like 2-3%, all-in.
I have been looking into a move in the opposite direction (Mtl > Europe) and this is pretty much what I figured, too.

Totally cool if you would rather not say, but I'm curious what you found the salary difference would be from Stockholm to TO. Stockholm being on our shortlist, I've researched a bit and my impression is that after cost of living adjustment, you'd still be a bit farther ahead in Sweden, but likely not transformatively so.
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  #419  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
+1

Agree 100%. The younger generation have ridiculous expectations and want everything handed to them on a silver platter without actually putting in the work to achieve them. When their reality doesn't match their entitlement them predictably become angry, resentful, negative, pessimistic, and complain about everything imaginable. And of course, it's never their fault, so they just point the finger elsewhere ..... usually at the generations that came before them.

And the arguments about inheriting a polluted planet in decline ring quite hollow when 95% of them think nothing of replacing their phone every 2-3 years or flying down to Florida in February. It's arguably even less excusable since they know how damaging it is but do it any way.
Does "being able to afford to purchase a home at some point in their lives" count as a ridiculous expectation?

I think anyone who doesn't take into account the housing and over all cost of living crisis when talking about younger generation's pessimism and negativity is just completely missing the point.

A generation of overworked, highly educated individuals who will spend their lives scraping by, yes even if they lived frugally, is bound to be bitter and hopeless and pessimistic.
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  #420  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2024, 6:11 PM
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I've been considering Canada to Spain on retirement lately.
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