Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The reality is that most cycling infrastructure (outside of Vancouver) is either on the side of the road on a curb lane and separated by a painted line or shares the same space that pedestrians use. I prefer more cyclist on these areas cause that means that's 1 less car in front of me.

...and no cyclists in front of you, as is the case on many streets without a dedicated or at least a marked cycle lane.

A lot of motorists against cycling infrastructure seem to forget that it helps get cyclists out of vehicle lanes, where they'd normally be required to be (since they're not permitted on sidewalks).

[DKaz]

A human on a bicycle is a lot less strain on infrastructure than 1000-3000 kg personal vehicles to several tonnes for personal vehicles. A lot of bicycle and multi use paths are on its original asphalt. There are sidewalks that have not been repaved in over 100 years.

Source: Scout Magazine
Website: https://scoutmagazine.ca/2017/04/11/you-...s-still-spelling-out-vancouvers-history/

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

A lot of motorists against cycling infrastructure seem to forget that it helps get cyclists out of vehicle lanes, where they'd normally be required to be (since they're not permitted on sidewalks).

Pedestrian here: somebody forgot to tell the cyclists. A conspicuous number of them ride on the sidewalk even when there's a bike lane. If a driver tried that, they'd be hit with a ticket and 36 hours of internet shaming.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Pedestrian here: somebody forgot to tell the cyclists. A conspicuous number of them ride on the sidewalk even when there's a bike lane. If a driver tried that, they'd be hit with a ticket and 36 hours of internet shaming.

There certainly is a lack of education for cyclists. Many learned to ride a bike on the sidewalk as kids and didn't transition to the road as adults. Some are still scared of riding on the roads because the bike infrastructure is poor. And some really don't care.

All that being said, I will point out that I have encountered countless pedestrians walking in bike lanes. In Stanley Park, on the BC Parkway, along the Seawall...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Indeed. Wonder how much it would cost to paint every lane green...?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Pedestrian here: somebody forgot to tell the cyclists. A conspicuous number of them ride on the sidewalk even when there's a bike lane. If a driver tried that, they'd be hit with a ticket and 36 hours of internet shaming.

Depending on where you are, cycling on the sidewalk is legal. Municipalities are allowed to pass bylaws allowing it.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

There certainly is a lack of education for cyclists. Many learned to ride a bike on the sidewalk as kids and didn't transition to the road as adults. Some are still scared of riding on the roads because the bike infrastructure is poor.

Yes, exactly. Decent bike lanes benefit motorists and pedestrians by giving the cyclists their own right of way.

I've been known to ride on the sidewalk for short distances in certain places where the only alternative is to ride on a busy arterial that I don't feel safe on. But I try to keep a wide berth from pedestrians and if that's not possible either stop while they pass or dismount.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Depending on where you are, cycling on the sidewalk is legal. Municipalities are allowed to pass bylaws allowing it.

But they don't really get enforced like cars do. Cars require licenses, registration, and insurance. Bikes don't have license plates and don't require licenses. I've almost been hit by quite a few bikes zipping around corners of sidewalks on bikes, some wearing black, some not having lights, some blowing stop signs, some going from road to sidewalk and back and forth like a cat indecisive if it wasn't to go outside or not.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

But they don't really get enforced like cars do. Cars require licenses, registration, and insurance. Bikes don't have license plates and don't require licenses. I've almost been hit by quite a few bikes zipping around corners of sidewalks on bikes, some wearing black, some not having lights, some blowing stop signs, some going from road to sidewalk and back and forth like a cat indecisive if it wasn't to go outside or not.

There's a reason people feel comfortable walking on bike thoroughfares like the temporary lanes on Beach or the clearly marked lanes on the sea wall, but would never consider strolling into traffic on Georgia or Kingsway. Bikes and pedestrians actually mix fairly very well compared to other modes of transportation, and although I prefer segregated bike lanes and sidewalks, I will never be upset at a new cyclist who is more comfortable on the sidewalk then mixed traffic on the road. I would also take getting hit by a bike over getting hit by a car, every day of the week.

That being said, the rules should be enforced for cyclists, same as drivers, but I can see why police are more focused on automobiles since the consequences of running a red light or speeding in a car are much more dire.

Anecdotally, police in Germany patrol on bikes during and after big football matches looking for drunk cyclists and bikes that are not lit properly.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Bikes and pedestrians actually mix fairly very well compared to other modes of transportation, and although I prefer segregated bike lanes and sidewalks, I will never be upset at a new cyclist who is more comfortable on the sidewalk then mixed traffic on the road. I would also take getting hit by a bike over getting hit by a car, every day of the week.

I'm not sure I agree with this take. Obviously cars are the most dangerous things out there, but cyclists constantly whiz by me too close, on places they shouldn't be (sidewalks) and otherwise threaten me in an annoying way as a pedestrian.

It's a similar feeling to cars passing by and cutting you off on a bike. That is more dangerous, but happens far less often IMO. I do a lot of walking and cycling these days.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm not sure I agree with this take. Obviously cars are the most dangerous things out there, but cyclists constantly whiz by me too close, on places they shouldn't be (sidewalks) and otherwise threaten me in an annoying way as a pedestrian.

It's a similar feeling to cars passing by and cutting you off on a bike. That is more dangerous, but happens far less often IMO. I do a lot of walking and cycling these days.

I guess this comes down to our own experience, but I don't see a lot of bikes on sidewalks. I live in Metrotown and work in the financial district, so maybe the bikes-on-sidewalks issue is worse in other parts of the city and I am not privy to it.

I do see a lot of alternative modes of transportation using sidewalks. Electric scooters, mopeds, electric longboards, etc. are all common sights on my commute, but if it solves the "last mile problem" and encourages people to use transit instead of a car, I'm okay with it.

But to tie this back to the thread... Dedicating a small third tunnel that may have built regardless to pedestrians and cyclists should not have people up in arms over the George Massey connection. There are other reasons to criticize what is being built (including that a bridge would be more pleasant for cyclists and pedestrians), but including a connection across the Fraser when the next closest option is 14 KM upstream is not one of them.

[logicbomb]

Been to Amsterdam and Copenhagen, where there is a proper culture of cycling. Cyclist and pedestrians get along and there's spatial awareness by all parties that share the roadway or pathway.

The issue here is a complete lack of awareness, education and just general care. Pedestrians use cycling lanes and pathways, and cyclist use sidewalks and walking areas. We also see North America make gigantic SUV-like strollers that take up half a shared pathway with the person riding in the middle. You also have moronic drivers that somehow get on the Arbutus Greenway or Railway Avenue Greenway.

[Alex Mackinnon]

It's probably useful to point out that a pedestrian and bike tube is likely also to be useful as an emergency escapeway in case of fire underground, or as a fresh air ventilation way. Currently, the escapeway is simply the oncoming traffic lane.

I'm mostly just hoping that they enable the future option of adding light rail into the tunnel. It's much easier to build the section a bit wider than do a second tube at a later date.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I'm mostly just hoping that they enable the future option of adding light rail into the tunnel. It's much easier to build the section a bit wider than do a second tube at a later date.

Really not seeing the point of any rail to Delta; even if you quadruple current demand on the 620, that's less than most express buses.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Really not seeing the point of any rail to Delta; even if you quadruple current demand on the 620, that's less than most express buses.

Are there plans for the Canada Line to eventually extend to the southern edge of Lulu island? If so, maybe the terminus station could be configured as a park- (your bikes or automobiles) and-ride to capture the SoF commuters.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Are there plans for the Canada Line to eventually extend to the southern edge of Lulu island? If so, maybe the terminus station could be configured as a park- (your bikes or automobiles) and-ride to capture the SoF commuters.

The most concrete plan as of today is YVR's proposal to extend to White Rock (no, really); for starters, we'd have to double-track the Lansdowne-Brighouse stretch. A park & ride could work, but so could a bus loop for a RapidBus from Bridgeport to T-Mills.

But maybe this belongs in the transit threads.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm not sure I agree with this take. Obviously cars are the most dangerous things out there, but cyclists constantly whiz by me too close, on places they shouldn't be (sidewalks) and otherwise threaten me in an annoying way as a pedestrian.

It's a similar feeling to cars passing by and cutting you off on a bike. That is more dangerous, but happens far less often IMO. I do a lot of walking and cycling these days.

The thing about bikes is that they tend to survive their crashes a bit better, since they go slower and they are lighter and have less breakable things and an lack an insurance premium that will go up, where as cars have stuff like glass that can break, things under the hood that can get easily damaged in a collision, and an insurance premium that will go up, as well as licensing that can be revoked or have points against it. I see quite a few cyclists weaving in an out of pedestrians and transitioning from the road to the sidewalk.

It's (financially) hard to get a car and government permission to drive it and insurance and keeping it repaired and fuelled and what not. Anyone can go to the store and purchase a bike.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I see quite a few cyclists weaving in an out of pedestrians and transitioning from the road to the sidewalk.

It's (financially) hard to get a car and government permission to drive it and insurance and keeping it repaired and fuelled and what not. Anyone can go to the store and purchase a bike.

This is the problem IMO. I'm talking about busy areas where cyclists do this. They force people walking to stop, move, etc. Avoiding an actual incident is relatively easy, but they are just being assholes.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

It's (financially) hard to get a car and government permission to drive it and insurance and keeping it repaired and fuelled and what not. Anyone can go to the store and purchase a bike.

My friend bike rides to and from work everyday. It's significantly expensive to maintain a bike, even more so if you plan to use a bike in the elements. Price of bike lube and oils have shot up. Maintenance through bike shops can run you near $250 every 3 months. Parts have also increased in price to the point where new tubes went from something near $5 a pack to $20+ in under a year. Yes, it's cheaper than driving, but it's not necessarily a free ride.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

...It's significantly expensive to maintain a bike, even more so if you plan to use a bike in the elements. ... Maintenance through bike shops can run you near $250 every 3 months...

Someone is being taken for a ride, and it's not on a bike...