Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

This is the one. Bang on Carboy. I kept struggling to work around Enns Bros with a diamond, but parclo does it. With very minimal impact. Only absorbs parking lots from Esso/Petro (no buildings, less $$). That's all this intersection needs. Saves $100+ million vs the nonsense MTI proposed. Easily. Send'r in to the govt bean counters.

Totally agree. Not to mention that this new interchange is more than likely to harm business from the truck stops alongside the highway currently, as they will be a bit harder to access off the main highway. Maybe if Petro wanted a new location, then maybe they could consider moving as it is a older location. Corner Oak Esso was built around 2013? That's too new to have that place run out of business

[longfeather]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

This is the one. Bang on Carboy. I kept struggling to work around Enns Bros with a diamond, but parclo does it. With very minimal impact. Only absorbs parking lots from Esso/Petro (no buildings, less $$). That's all this intersection needs. Saves $100+ million vs the nonsense MTI proposed. Easily. Send'r in to the govt bean counters.

Enns brothers will be moved from their current location before shovels are in the ground for anything at this intersection

[bodaggin]

St Annes Overpass: I'd skip the Rail overpass for now to save another $100 million. How often does that rail line even run? Any locals here?

The logic is simple, stopping the Perimeter 5x per week (train) is still a lot less than stopping it 1500x+ per week (St Anne's light). So the St Anne overpass is the biggest priority. From a construction standpoint the two projects don't necessarily need to be done together. They can be phased.

With the city rail line debate still up in the air, this strategy prevents dumping 9 figures into a potentially obsolete 6-lane bridge to nowhere. The simple diamond interchanged I drew should be an easy $50 million project, not the insane $150-200 million monstrosity they're projecting by doing both.

Resist "project creep" and use the leftover $100m to build 1-2 other higher priority overpasses. Pipeline, Dugald, Yellowhead, Carberry, etc....

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

St Annes Overpass: I'd skip the Rail overpass for now to save another $100 million. How often does that rail line even run? Any locals here?

The logic is simple, stopping the Perimeter 5x per week (train) is still a lot less than stopping it 1500x+ per week (St Anne's light). So the St Anne overpass is the biggest priority. From a construction standpoint the two projects don't necessarily need to be done together. They can be phased.

With the city rail line debate still up in the air, this strategy prevents dumping 9 figures into a potentially obsolete 6-lane bridge to nowhere. The simple diamond interchanged I drew should be an easy $50 million project, not the insane $150-200 million monstrosity they're projecting by doing both.

Resist "project creep" and use the leftover $100m to build 1-2 other higher priority overpasses. Pipeline, Dugald, Yellowhead, Carberry, etc....

I did a little street view sleuthing and it appears to be Non-Main Track (no auto switches or signals). Heading South I believe that's the Rosenfield/Altona Sub which services the Ag facilities down there. Some huge grain customers down that track, it's probably not going anywhere.

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by FactaNV

I did a little street view sleuthing and it appears to be Non-Main Track (no auto switches or signals). Heading South I believe that's the Rosenfield/Altona Sub which services the Ag facilities down there. Some huge grain customers down that track, it's probably not going anywhere.

Actually, the track going Parallel to St Annes road is the CP Emerson subdivision, which is a main CP line that heads to Emerson and then the USA (ultimately connecting to Glenwood MN with the CPKC USA Main line).

CP La Riviere Subdivision (which connects to CP Gretna in Rosenfeld) is a non-main track which is used for the grain producers that ends at Binney (near Manitou MB). It did once connect to Killarney and headed to Deloraine area (Napinka).

Going back to the Perimeter Hwy, CP Emerson subdision is a main line, but I agree it doesn't have the amount of trains CN Reddit subdivision has. CP Emerson does need an overpass, but not like CN Reddit and Dugald Rd. I do hope Dugald Rd gets the first interchange on the North Perimeter. I don't get why there isn't an interchange there. Speaking of which, Plessis underpass construction started in 2013 or 2014 and ended 2016. So maybe we aren't that far behind, but still should have been done years ago

[harls]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

St Annes Overpass: I'd skip the Rail overpass for now to save another $100 million. How often does that rail line even run? Any locals here?

The logic is simple, stopping the Perimeter 5x per week (train) is still a lot less than stopping it 1500x+ per week (St Anne's light). So the St Anne overpass is the biggest priority. From a construction standpoint the two projects don't necessarily need to be done together. They can be phased.

The second you use the word 'phased' it will be 40 years. Get it done now while it's relatively 'cheaper'.

Google maps won't mark the TCH 100 as a freeway with a railroad running across it. Isn't that the goal here?

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by harls

Isn't freeway the goal here?

Well, maybe. But which is a more beneficial way to spend $100m? One 6-lane railway bridge that saves a few stops.

Or maybe TWO 2-lane overpasses (Dugald, Pipeline, Hwy 6, La Salle Rd) that save MANY stops? I'd trade 1 rail overpass for eliminating 2 lights any day of the week.

And remember, without Route 90 interchanged, South Perimeter is not free-flowing. Skipping the rail portion of St Annes, could damn near pay for a Kenaston half clover. Priorities.

[cllew]

For those that were asking about the CPKC Emerson subdivision train counts, the WSP /south perimeter design study final report in 2020 said there were at least 7 trains a day.

As somebody who gets stopped by occasion @ the Mission Av crossing they seem to be fairly long trains to and from the US as the Emerson Subdivision is of of 2 CPKC 's western Canada routes south. Maybe a PTH 100 overpass is justified by the length (trains have been getting longer) rather than the number each day.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by cllew

For those that were asking about the CPKC Emerson subdivision train counts, the WSP /south perimeter design study final report in 2020 said there were at least 7 trains a day.

7 per DAY?! Holy crap. Really? If true, disregard then. Rail overpass justified. My bad.

[Carboy15]

For railway crossings on the Perimeter, it does make sense to put railway overpasses at CN Reddit, CP La Riviere, CP Emerson, CP Riverton, and Prairie Dog Central.

But I'd have a problem if they put rail overpasses at those railway crossings that get one train every so often.

[WildCake]

A COW report indicated an annual daily average of 4 train crossings on CPKC Emerson in a 2018, and as cllew mentioned, up to 7 daily using WSP's report.

I used to drive through fairly regularly and can attest that it is a moderately busy crossing, but leaning to more evening/night trains than midday.

Might as well bundle it with St Anne's and do that whole section of the Perimeter under one contract. I can imagine both projects independently would cost 125 million each using Manitobanomics, rather than the 150-200 of Manitobanomics interchange costs currently being thrown around for the joint project.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/mti/hpd/pth100...nal_report.pdf

https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/finance/f...Appendix_B.pdf

[Mr Tall Forehead]

Prairie Dog goes once a week during summer. Riverton line runs once a week and basically only to serve the whiskey plant in Gimli (provincial gem!). Neither of those need an overpass.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Mr Tall Forehead

Prairie Dog goes once a week during summer. Riverton line runs once a week. Neither of those need an overpass.

Bingo.

Same with the Stonewall line that goes 2.5miles and ends at a single customer: Richardson. Time to pinch pennies. Stop the bridges to nowhere, so we can start building the desperately needed bridges to somewhere.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by Mr Tall Forehead

Prairie Dog goes once a week during summer. Riverton line runs once a week and basically only to serve the whiskey plant in Gimli (provincial gem!). Neither of those need an overpass.

Not only the Diago plant in Gimli. That subdivision also serves the Manitoba Rolling Mill in Selkirk and there is a spur off to the Selkirk Silica plant and the Ashgrove cement terminal

There are a lot of obsolete rail cars that come to Selkirk for recycling at the mill

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Bingo.

Same with the Stonewall line that goes 2.5miles and ends at a single customer: Richardson. Time to pinch pennies. Stop the bridges to nowhere, so we can start building the desperately needed bridges to somewhere.

No one is building bridges to nowhere. Those rail line overpasses are so far in the future since they're such a low priority provincially, that the rail lines might end up discontinued before the province even gets close to dealing with them.

Or in an alternate universe, regional rail transit gets developed and these ROWs end up being used and transit funds can be leveraged to build these rail overpasses. Utopian dreaming.

[Wpgstvsouth94]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

7 per DAY?! Holy crap. Really? If true, disregard then. Rail overpass justified. My bad.

The rail interchange is desperately needed. Between 100, bishop, and fermor I’m always stuck at a train at either of these at all hours of the day or night. In rush hour on 100 it backs up traffic say your going eastbound all the way too st Mary’s road. I can’t wait for this construction to start. I wish it was tomorrow.

[bomberjet]

Transport Canada list 4-7 trains per day on the Emerson Sub crossings inventory. 4 at PTH 100. So maybe 2 trains going in and out per day.

The 2 CPKC lines on the Noth Perimeter. I mentioned this recently in conjunction with out rail relocation talks.

About 8 years ago, the Province had and RFP to combine the 2 tracks into one. Because as you guys have noted, there is minimal traffic on both lines. They were looking for routes to get the Winnipeg Beach Sub over to the Arborg Sub. This would make only one crossing of 101. and remove a bunch of track and rial crossing through the area.

The RFP was cancelled and didnt proceed. This could be picked up again if they actually went ahead with a rail relocation study or just wanted to remove that crossing. It would cost as much to move that track as it would for an overpass. So pick your poison.

[bodaggin]

Ya that Selkirk line is busy. And yes, combining rail lines isn't the right plan. But here are the proposed "bridges to nowhere" off the top of my head in the Perimeter plans:

-Road 8E (Between La Salle Rd/McGillivray)
-Wyper Road
-Selkirk Ave
-Prairie Dog Rail
-Sturgeon
-Stonewall Rail Line
-Wenzel/Imperial Oil line (2x separate, 1 needed)

None of these need overpasses. Ever.

And this doesn't mention breaking perfectly good existing clovers to convert into diverging diamonds etc (McPhillips, Main, Portage, etc). There's definitely a "bridge to nowhere" problem, a squander problem, and a prioritization problem within MTI, WSP, etc.

[bomberjet]

If they want a freeway, no at grade crossings.

A lot of the interchanges proposed at small or not existent road locations are long term future interchanges. They won't blindly install anything. MTI doesn't knee jerk do much of anything, as we know. Maybe install R-CUT's on a knee jerk. But no interchanges!

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Ya that Selkirk line is busy. And yes, combining rail lines isn't the right plan. But here are the proposed "bridges to nowhere" off the top of my head in the Perimeter plans:

-Road 8E (Between La Salle Rd/McGillivray)
-Wyper Road
-Selkirk Ave
-Prairie Dog Rail
-Sturgeon
-Stonewall Rail Line
-Wenzel/Imperial Oil line (2x separate, 1 needed)

None of these need overpasses. Ever.

And this doesn't mention breaking perfectly good existing clovers to convert into diverging diamonds etc (McPhillips, Main, Portage, etc). There's definitely a "bridge to nowhere" problem, a squander problem, and a prioritization problem within MTI, WSP, etc.

Deep breath in, deep breath out.

Wyper, 8E, Selkirk, and Sturgeon will eventually be needed once the city sprawls out that way. They're in the plans for a reason. Not sure what makes you think they'll never be needed?

The alternative access points will be too far in between and the amount of people and vehicular traffic these future suburbs will generate would bring those access points beyond their limits without anything in between. And none of them are too close to existing access points that safe merging distances would be compromised.

No one at MTI has said they're a priority but they will eventually be needed if the Perimeter is to be a properly built freeway, which it will be eventually.

The rail overpasses can be debated as to whether it's cheaper to consolidate lines or wait out and see if they'll be shut down by the clients they currently serve.

I don't understand where you're pulling this idea that MTI can't prioritize. The three interchanges in the works right now have the highest total traffic counts out of all the light-controlled intersections in this province. Pipeline and Dugald being the next ones up but they're probably waiting on the North Perimeter design study.