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  #4061  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 8:06 PM
Yahoo Yahoo is offline
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To clarify, there were radio reports of the mayor getting stuck in traffic that lead to things like Macleod Trail and Lake Fraser Gate light timing changes. Which is a good thing! This plan wasn't put up due to brainstorming - it was as a result of important people getting stuck in traffic.

I just wish common people or city workers would report and complain more. Not to be jerks - I mean complain to get obvious solutions or obvious problems looked at. Too often people just whine to themselves (or in comment or discussion forums) without talking to the people who can get things done. And people are niave if they think a complaint by the mayor isn't given priority over say a typical 311 call. (which according to some sources at city hall (I know an IT person that works for the city) are ignored unless 10 people make the same complaint)

Has anyone here ever noticed something silly, unsafe, or crazy with a light timing or roadway design but never reported it? (rhetorical question - we all know the answer). From what I read a lot of people do notice things.

Last edited by Yahoo; Nov 7, 2013 at 8:47 PM.
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  #4062  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 8:18 PM
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Re: the airport tunnel. I don't think another debate is necessary because it's already been discussed a lot, but to answer some people's questions who seem baffled why people are still upset...

I actually supported it originally. It would cost more to do later, would be easier to do now, it would provide alternate access to the airport etc. All true.

But then some things changed my mind. And it's not just me after all. Like people note - a lot of people are still upset.

- excessive cost
- there is no access now and has it hurt anything?
- I was flying a lot at the time and noticed that lots of big cities only have 1 access to their airports. Often due to things like lakes or oceans, but sometimes mountains or just houses prevented more access
- I looked at maps to discover the routes to the airport if the tunnel wasn't built. They seemed reasonable.
- I feel it would be money better spent to upgrade the access roads we have now rather than spend more on another access point. Upgrades to Deerfoot and surrounding roads have more benefits than just airport access.
- Potential LRT access to the airport is 1 benefit, but it's not like there aren't other ways to do this. In any case it's not something that will happen soon anyway.
- Excessive ongoing insurance costs are required since a problem with the tunnel could be disastrous to the airport.
- I don't really think it's a big concern (or even a valid concern) but some have mentioned the security risk as a terrorist target if Calgary was ever in the spot light. (G8 meeting, Olympics etc)
- I checked into congestion around the airport - there wasn't any - especially compared to the rest of our main roads. There is no evidence it will be needed anytime within the next hundred years.

But my biggest issue is that it used up pretty much the entire road budget for Calgary. If you're going to prevent other projects then you better be sure it's the best use of your money. Mayor Dave mentioned something like 40 unfunded interchanges were needed in Calgary (ideally of course). I don't think 1 of them has been built under Mayor N. Mayor N ran away from Crowchild (although I think he would like it fixed if we had the money), stopped Bowfort and 16th yet again, and due to economic reasons (which I support) quit a lot of the road resurfacing projects - but that resulted in a lot more than usual wavy bumpy roads.

I don't hate the idea of the tunnel and can think of several reasons to support it. But in the end it just isn't worth the cost/benefit. How many people go to the airport every day compared to use Crowchild or McLeod for example?

Last edited by Yahoo; Nov 7, 2013 at 9:00 PM.
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  #4063  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 8:53 PM
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To call me a crackpot because the light timing was changed at Bow and Sarcee right when the new LRT line came on line is a bit stunning to me. Drive that way home now and you'll be parked at green lights sometimes backing up to westbrook mall due to the light change. Similar changes occurred into downtown. Anyone who drives 11th St and 6th Ave SW knows this to be a fact. Before you think I'm wearing a tinfoil hat wander down and look for yourselves at rush hour. The walk cycle at that light was changed to a mere 8 "seconds" and traffic sits at an unnecessary red every rush hour. (I complained to 311 and after 3 updates explaining why they couldn't change it they sent someone to look and actually did change it because of my complaint. But not by much). Maybe it wasn't a conspiracy. But why didn't they put up "new" signs? Why did they lower the speed leaving downtown westward AFTER the LRT construction was finished? (again - with no "new" sign). I think it's naive to think that cities don't try to manipulate light timing. It's often for the greater good. But if you do it then it should be done in the open don't you think? Perhaps the people involved didn't think it was a big deal, but if you had to sit parked at a green light every evening then perhaps you'd be a little ticked off too. Man, I can't believe Calgary transit doesn't complain since it's a bus route too.

Anyway, even though I like to discuss and debate things I'm really regretting the decision to create an account here and post my opinions. (lol - as I'm sure many of you agree). Although it's awfully boring if everyone agrees about everything - which seems to be what many old timers here want.
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  #4064  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 9:00 PM
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fusili fusili is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
To clarify, there were radio reports of the mayor getting stuck in traffic that lead to things like Macleod Trail and Lake Fraser Gate light timing changes. Which is a good thing! This plan wasn't put up due to brainstorming - it was as a result of important people getting stuck in traffic.

I just wish common people or city workers would report and complain more. Not to be jerks - I mean complain to get obvious solutions or obvious problems looked at. Too often people just whine to themselves (or in comment or discussion forums) without talking to the people who can get things done. And people are niave if they think a complaint by the mayor isn't given priority over say a typical 311 call. (which according to some sources at city hall (I know an IT person that works for the city) are ignored unless 10 people make the same complaint)

Has anyone here ever noticed something silly, unsafe, or crazy with a light timing or roadway design but never reported it? (rhetorical question - we all know the answer). From what I read a lot of people do notice things.
No, no it wasn't. This was an initiative that directed transportation to find cost-effective changes to congestion called the Traffic Congestion Reduction Strategy, which included pilots at other intersections.

And yes, we should ignore complaints that are reported by less than 10 people. Because in a City of 1 million people, trying to solve every single complaint to 311 would create a horrendous logjam of work that the city would never, ever get out of.

Stop getting your information from radio talk shows, online comment boards and the like. If you want to pretend to understand what you are talking about, actually follow Council and Committee hearings and see what is actually going on. Or just search the City of Calgary website to see what is happening and why. Otherwise this is just tinfoil hat, batshit crazy, sun newspaper commenting nonsense.
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  #4065  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 9:33 PM
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The airport tunnel used up Calgary's entire road budget?
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  #4066  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 9:36 PM
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The airport tunnel used up Calgary's entire road budget?
Yup. As long as your information is from newspaper comment boards, talk radio and other sources, the airport tunnel was the City's entire roads budget for 5 years. Plus, gravy train!!!
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  #4067  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 10:02 PM
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The airport tunnel used up Calgary's entire road budget?
No. It did use up the entire tunnel budget though.
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  #4068  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 10:07 PM
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Yup. As long as your information is from newspaper comment boards, talk radio and other sources, the airport tunnel was the City's entire roads budget for 5 years. Plus, gravy train!!!
Yeah the barely had enough money to repave 11th and 12th (and all other major roads in DT and the beltline) every second year for the past 6 Years! how dare they threaten the bi-annual downtown paving schedule by building a tunnel!
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  #4069  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
Re: the airport tunnel. I don't think another debate is necessary because it's already been discussed a lot, but to answer some people's questions who seem baffled why people are still upset...

I actually supported it originally. It would cost more to do later, would be easier to do now, it would provide alternate access to the airport etc. All true.

But then some things changed my mind. And it's not just me after all. Like people note - a lot of people are still upset.

- excessive cost It's expensive, but excessive? Probably not. Either way, city has already shown that building the tunnel is the least expensive alternative.
- there is no access now and has it hurt anything? Access to what? The Airport? That's not what the project is about, though it is a side benefit. Metis and CHB are very congested now.
- I was flying a lot at the time and noticed that lots of big cities only have 1 access to their airports. Often due to things like lakes or oceans, but sometimes mountains or just houses prevented more access Airport Access is not the main reason for the tunnel. But that's not to say that access from multiple directions isn't a good thing.
- I looked at maps to discover the routes to the airport if the tunnel wasn't built. They seemed reasonable. They certainly wouldn't be reasonable when the area is built out. That's the point. It would cost more than the cost of the tunnel to give high enough capacity access to Deerfoot along CHB/Metis in the future.
- I feel it would be money better spent to upgrade the access roads we have now rather than spend more on another access point. Upgrades to Deerfoot and surrounding roads have more benefits than just airport access. City has already shown that upgrading access roads to a high enough capacity would be more expensive than the tunnel. Downgrading of Metis Trail, which is complete, and made possible by the construction of the tunnel, already has saved the city over $200 million itself in future road building costs.
- Potential LRT access to the airport is 1 benefit, but it's not like there aren't other ways to do this. In any case it's not something that will happen soon anyway. Distance from future NC line and from current NE line is about the same, however, NE line is already there, rail transit doesn't have to wait for NC line to be done.
- Excessive ongoing insurance costs are required since a problem with the tunnel could be disastrous to the airport. Valid concern, but tunnel is built with all that in mind. Insurance costs shouldn't be terrible.
- I don't really think it's a big concern (or even a valid concern) but some have mentioned the security risk as a terrorist target if Calgary was ever in the spot light. (G8 meeting, Olympics etc) There are probably easier targets that would cause more problems.
- I checked into congestion around the airport - there wasn't any - especially compared to the rest of our main roads. There is no evidence it will be needed anytime within the next hundred years. Is the congestion as bad as some other roads? no. Is there some congestion on CHB and Metis now? Absolutely. Also, note that these are roads driving through empty fields on either side for the most part. Those fields aren't going to be empty in 5-10 years. Stonegate Landing, Jacksonport, Cityscape, Skyview Ranch, Redstone, Saddleridge - all of these are going to be filling up 5 -10 years from now. Without the Airport Tunnel, CHB may have had the worst congestion in the city 5-10 years from now, hence the reason why rebuilding it to handle all the traffic would cost more than the tunnel costs. All those developments listed, that doesn't even fill up the entire NE area INSIDE the ring road. And the densest portions of the developments that are already there haven't even started yet. The corner of CHB/60th St is zoned for high density, up to 80 metre (~20 story) tall buildings, I think. Plus 6-8 story buildings surrounding that. The whole area is roughly 10% developed, and the existing roads are struggling.

But my biggest issue is that it used up pretty much the entire road budget for Calgary. If you're going to prevent other projects then you better be sure it's the best use of your money. Mayor Dave mentioned something like 40 unfunded interchanges were needed in Calgary (ideally of course). I don't think 1 of them has been built under Mayor N. Mayor N ran away from Crowchild (although I think he would like it fixed if we had the money), stopped Bowfort and 16th yet again, and due to economic reasons (which I support) quit a lot of the road resurfacing projects - but that resulted in a lot more than usual wavy bumpy roads. The money saved by building the tunnel now will help the city catch up in infrastructure needs in the future. It didn't use up any portion of the roads budget. It was built with capital money. When the city signs the city charter that is coming, it will have the source for the capital funding that it wants.

I don't hate the idea of the tunnel and can think of several reasons to support it. But in the end it just isn't worth the cost/benefit. How many people go to the airport every day compared to use Crowchild or McLeod for example? Again, tunnel was not built solely for airport access, it was not even the main reason. It is a good reason, though, as the Airport lands are one of the biggest employment areas in the city. Also, comparing cost benefit between it and other projects isn't really the issue here. The cost benefit calculation was done between the tunnel option and what it would have cost to solve the same problem in a different way. The tunnel was shown to be both cheaper and the best option - really making it a no brainer.
Answers in red above.
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  #4070  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
I just wish common people or city workers would report and complain more. Not to be jerks - I mean complain to get obvious solutions or obvious problems looked at. Too often people just whine to themselves (or in comment or discussion forums) without talking to the people who can get things done. And people are niave if they think a complaint by the mayor isn't given priority over say a typical 311 call. (which according to some sources at city hall (I know an IT person that works for the city) are ignored unless 10 people make the same complaint)
For what it's worth, I've complained to 311 about some specific road issues and have gotten action, sometimes. It seems if the complaint is reasonable, and obviously fixable without much cost/effort, it gets done. Remember, the city encourages you to report potholes so they don't have to go looking all over for them. My last complain about a pot hole, the city went above and beyond my original complaint and fixed all the cracks up and down the street while they were there.
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  #4071  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 12:59 AM
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City has already shown that upgrading access roads to a high enough capacity would be more expensive than the tunnel. Downgrading of Metis Trail, which is complete, and made possible by the construction of the tunnel, already has saved the city over $200 million itself in future road building costs.
Yeah... I'm not ever going to understand this. I realize we've saved a ton of money, at the expense of Metis sucking and it will continue to suck and eventually become Macleod-bad, and the tunnel will dump more traffic onto it so I don't get that argument either.
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  #4072  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 2:52 AM
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Building the tunnel was the right thing to do.
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  #4073  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 5:38 AM
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15 Million Dollars to be spent on Deerfoot Trail Improvements
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/ca...395/story.html

Any bets this will accomodate maybe 1 years growth for the super S.E? Also that this project is getting fast tracked because our minister of transportation lives in the area?
However any improvements the province is willing to take the whole bill before they hand it back to Calgary is much appreciated.
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  #4074  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 5:43 AM
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Building the tunnel was the right thing to do.
Agree 100%. Nuking plans to build an interchange at Airport Trail/Metis... that's what I don't get. You're negating the effectiveness of the tunnel if the infrastructure is not there on either side to support it.

It's as if nobody realizes how fucking terrible McKnight is and that you need a decent thoroughfare for the NE. Airport Trail is their only shot at it.

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Any bets this will accomodate maybe 1 years growth for the super S.E?.
It's better than nothing and I like the plan, but I'm sure by any official measure the improvement will accommodate zero years of growth, as Deerfoot would still be over-capacity going through there. Not really anything to write home about until the they fix the Glenmore squeeze as well. Instead of NB slowing to a crawl around Barlow in the morning rush, it'll start maybe a few hundred metres further north. Meh.
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  #4075  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 5:48 AM
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Agree 100%. Nuking plans to build an interchange at Airport Trail/Metis... that's what I don't get. You're negating the effectiveness of the tunnel if the infrastructure is not there on either side to support it.
There is still plans for an interchange at Metis Trail/Airport Trail. Airport Trail will eventually be freeway from Stoney to Deerfoot. The Metis/64th Ave interchange wasn't axed either.
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  #4076  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 7:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sportsdude View Post
15 Million Dollars to be spent on Deerfoot Trail Improvements
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/ca...395/story.html

Any bets this will accomodate maybe 1 years growth for the super S.E? Also that this project is getting fast tracked because our minister of transportation lives in the area?
However any improvements the province is willing to take the whole bill before they hand it back to Calgary is much appreciated.
I attended the open house for this on Wednesday night. These upgrades seem like a great idea, for relatively low cost. However it only moves the problem on NB Deerfoot to Glenmore where it also reduces to 2 lanes. But at least they are working on it. And it makes sense to wait for the SE ring road to open first, at least give people an alternative before you cause chaos.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/drftom-gp.htm

However, it also does nothing to fix SB Deerfoot at Anderson. Talking to AB Transportation, the long term plan is to add another bridge at Anderson south of the existing structure. But that would be very expensive. They looked at creating a basket weave for the SB merging traffic from Southland, but they feel there is not enough room to make it work.

At least they are trying....
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  #4077  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 6:37 PM
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There's no sense in making sub-standard fixes to temporarily improve conditions on Deerfoot. They need to significantly rework the Glenmore and Anderson/Bow Bottom interchanges to improve traffic flow in the long term, so those will definitely have to sit and wait longer. The changes they are proposing may be smaller, but they will make a difference and fit within the current restrictions without appearing to do anything sub-standard.
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  #4078  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 7:00 PM
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There's no sense in making sub-standard fixes to temporarily improve conditions on Deerfoot. They need to significantly rework the Glenmore and Anderson/Bow Bottom interchanges to improve traffic flow in the long term, so those will definitely have to sit and wait longer. The changes they are proposing may be smaller, but they will make a difference and fit within the current restrictions without appearing to do anything sub-standard.
Hey it's me, anti-roads guy, and I agree with this message. The Glenmore/Deerfoot interchange is such a clusterfu%$k. I don't know how many times I blew by Glenmore just because I forgot to turn off 2 KM BEFORE THE DAMN INTERCHANGE!!

And Anderson/Deerfoot, that's just dangerous.
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  #4079  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 7:31 PM
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Hey it's me, anti-roads guy, and I agree with this message. The Glenmore/Deerfoot interchange is such a clusterfu%$k. I don't know how many times I blew by Glenmore just because I forgot to turn off 2 KM BEFORE THE DAMN INTERCHANGE!!

And Anderson/Deerfoot, that's just dangerous.
In Deerfoot and Glenmore, you essentially have the biggest N/S road and the biggest E/W road in the city intersecting, and one of the turn movements doesn't even have a ramp. You have to drive through a couple of lights, make a right turn, and then merge onto Glenmore. The other turn movements have their own ramps, but aren't much better - tight radius ramps that have yield sings at the end of them, and are so small that you added a lane to get rid of the yield signs, you'd still have FAR too short weave zones.

The whole thing needs to be blown up and started from scratch.
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  #4080  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2013, 8:02 PM
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^ Agreed ... With the SWRR deal in place and appears that fiasco is over with, the next major road expenses should be incurred on revamping Glenmore/Deerfoot and Deerfoot/Anderson

It would be a painful few years of construction traffic for commuters but it's not going to get any better - short term pain for long term gain .. Brings the debate of spending money on the SELRT or on a complete overhaul of Deerfoot at Glenmore/Anderson
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